WAR MISCALCULATIONS

[Mordenheim]

some people won't be happy no matter what wellard

it will alway's be "well this is still around" or "that group is still alive"

They just can not give credit. Watching the now free people is enough to satisfy me. Is there more work to do? sure but at least it is getting done

[Skunk]

ONLY! *cough* ONLY? 18 months ago iirc was not the whole country in the hands of one of the most brutal, evil governments the world has seen since pol pot? spreading its tentacles of hatred and terror like cancer through the very fabric of world unity?

It was a brutal regime - BUT it was ruled as a religious one.
Yes indeed, punishments for crimes were certainly severe by our standards.
Yes indeed they refused to accept our social values - I mean, you could never buy a good porn mag in Kabul and hell, these toads would not allow you to watch a movie with blood and gore.

But the people *did* have freedom from bullets and freedom from terror, provided that they didn't challenge the system - the Taliban had ultimate control over the warlords. Today, there is nothing that they can do to avoid the terror as brutal warlords fight for petty gain and the people are caught in the middle.

Our improvements have included doubling the number of people at risk from starvation, massive casualties from unexploded ordinance, a million extra refugees and absolute lawlessness outside Kabul, where those with a gun have more rights than those without. Nice going.

You are right - we've had 18 months to sort this mess out - but we've forgotten Afghanistan in that time - a very short time to forget so many.
Some people do indeed have a very short memory - allow me to remind you that the Afghan situation is far from resolved:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=389803
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=391773
http://www.developmentgateway.org/no...w?docid=428104
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?R...n=Central_Asia

and even Kabul has major problems not seen under the Taliban:
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?R...n=Central_Asia

18 months is a short time to forget the mess we left behind...

[Animal]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: If you call that abusive then ... I do not understand you. You say I refer to the Iraqi people as deragatory? mind pointing out specific phrases? I refer to his butchers and thugs as scum that no society anywhere should tolerate. I do not refer to the opressed people as anything but a enslaved nation. That radical version of Islam is spreading. I watched a very good documentry called Islam : The new face on discovery about a half a year ago. I do not hate Islam anymore then I hate christianity. There is no doubt that Christianity was used for wisespread abusive torture and control through the history of the world. I don't have to hate Islam to hate the way it is getting used in certain places to enslave masses of people. I don't have to want them to follow my way of life to disagree with the abusive nature that this religion is ussed currently in certain places. Sadam is getting removed no thanks to all these peace loving idiealists (anti-american, Bush, wolf in sheeps clothing). Do people really think this new Iraqi government will praise France, Russia, and all the people doing every thing they could to stop this war before it even began? Only time will tell but again I would be willing to make a bet who they will see as the people who freed them and the people who tried to stand in the way. The whole premise you make of me disrespecting the opressed Iraq's is insane. I have no idea where you are getting this from but I ask for some clarification. Did you hear the report about the man who blew himself up and killed the American soldiers? Did you hear how his family was taken hostage and he was forced to? Did you see the tape of them shooting at Iraqi's trying to make it to the soldier's? I don't blame these people nor disrespect them. I brought the Taliban in for a specific reason. The same group crying about Iraq now were crying about Afghanistan. We are still in Afghanistan. Again, when the war is over I hope we can all have another conversation. I will make sure to keep note of these debates here and see how it all play's out.

My original post was not directed at you, but someone else who was, in my opinion, being quite disrespectful, so I suggest you start from the begining and work your way down again.

Let me start from scratch here. I have no love for Saddam, and I am quite happy to see him go, although I do not agree with the US method's of doing so. I have made my point on that subject several times in various different threads and have no desire to dig it up again.

Once again, I suggest you re-read my original post in this thread.

I hope we can have a discussion regarding this matter once all is said and done, but in the mean time, I see no reason for anybody to refer to anyone in Iraq in a disrespectful manner nor judge them based upon a religion or beliefs that nobody on this forum fully understands.

As for the removal of Saddam from power, do not make the mistake of assuming it is over the supposed WoMD that Saddam posses or his proven crimes against humanity. The western propaganda is as guilty of falsehoods as much as Iraq is.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: "but they are fighting to maintain their right to believe in Islam, something that, by your own words, would be taken from them in a westernised culture" I must have speed read past this. This is the most insane thing I have read yet by anyone on any forum. I bet we have more people following Islam then France, Russia, Canada and Germany put together. You are seriously mixing thing's up here. The RADICAL form of OPPRESIVE islam would not be allowed in ANY civilized country. You are free to practice ANY religion in the United States you wish. You can even follow Satanism if you wish as long as NO ONE is hurt and no law is broken. The government here has no right to stop you from practicing you're faith including Islam. man o man....... I know people in Canada are not that naive. I meet them all the time down here in florida. I mean what the? You live in a westernised culture. What are you talking about?

Naive? People in Canada? Exactly what is your point here.

During my tenure here in the war forum, I have had seem heated debates with various different people, but none have gotten to me quite like this.

Is the United States that perfect that they can decide for the rest of the world what they can and cannot do? You talk about the treatment of women in Iraq. I ask you this...do you know exactly how many women are beaten each day in the US or Canada or Britain or Germany or France, or any western culture because the men have the freedom to go out to the bar and get pissed each night, come home and beat the living crap out of their girlfriends or wives?

Before the US, or any other nation for that matter starts passing judgement, they need to take a long hard look at their own culture. How many women in the United States are being beaten tonight?

We have no right, NO RIGHT, to pass judgement on Iraq, when we are no better than they are.

Since the U.S. was responsible for putting Saddam into power in Iraq, don't you think they they should hold some responsibility in taking him out?

Yes, the abuse of mankind against mankind/womankind is a world-wide plague but how many countries will go around killing the wives and children of men who will not take up arms to kill for them? Giving people the option to "do what I tell you to do or die"?

[Azred]

Originally posted by Animal: Is the United States that perfect that they can decide for the rest of the world what they can and cannot do? You talk about the treatment of women in Iraq. I ask you this...do you know exactly how many women are beaten each day in the US or Canada or Britain or Germany or France, or any western culture because the men have the freedom to go out to the bar and get pissed each night, come home and beat the living crap out of their girlfriends or wives? Before the US, or any other nation for that matter starts passing judgement, they need to take a long hard look at their own culture. How many women in the United States are being beaten tonight? We have no right, NO RIGHT, to pass judgement on Iraq, when we are no better than they are.

I must respectfully disagree with you on this. The US is far from perfect--a simple examination of our history proves this. Furthermore, we are painfully aware of the domestic problems we face, even if we are currently focusing our attention elsewhere.
We are not, however, deciding what the rest of the world can or cannot do, because we certainly didn't force anyone to join the Coalition. True, decisions have been made that have an effect on the entire world, but we didn't force anyone's individual choice.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" has an inherent flaw. If my neighbor is beating his wife and I know about it (let's say I can hear them fighting and I see the bruises on her) then not only is it a crime to fail to report this activity it is a moral failure on my part. I am no better than the abusive neighbor; in fact, I would be just as bad as he for allowing the beating to continue when I could help stop it. It is a moral failure on the part of both the US and the entire world for not stopping Saddam Hussein sooner.
As a nation we are not passing judgement on the Iraqi people, only on a government that has failed to follow "generally acceptable behavior" for responsible governments. I think any sane person would agree that the Iraqi people deserve more decent treatment than they have received. The best way to accomplish this is to remove Hussein and allow the Iraqi people to rebuild their country the way they wish with a goverment they have themselves chosen.

**********

My goodness! This topic certainly brings out the feistiness in our nature. At least those on both sides of the fence are not apathetic.... [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[Skunk]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" has an inherent flaw. If my neighbor is beating his wife and I know about it (let's say I can hear them fighting and I see the bruises on her) then not only is it a crime to fail to report this activity it is a moral failure on my part. I am no better than the abusive neighbor; in fact, I would be just as bad as he for allowing the beating to continue when I could help stop it.

That's an interesting analogy - by a quirk of fate, I've seen the same one before, but used slightly differently. But before I quote it, let me first say this.

In my own opinion, the United States war on Iraq was unavoidable because the US was set upon removing what it perceived to be a threat to its security and interests, both in the middle east and at home. There was nothing that the international community (or indeed the Iraqi government) could do to prevent the conflict. The threat to US security was seen to be real and the belief in Washington was that Saddam could never be trusted (not without justification).

**It had nothing to do with weapons of mass destructions, helping the 'oppressed people of Iraq' or profit. Those are merely additional secondary benefits of the action.**

However, the *rest of the world* (and by this I mean the majority of the population, rather than merely the governments of various regimes are far more cynical (esp. in the ME).

Anyway, back to the wife-beating analogy as posed in the Saudi based Arab News:
"Take the apparently unobjectionable statement that, by opposing a US invasion of Iraq, you are effectively supporting the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Perhaps it is better to explore this by way of an analogy. Suppose you know of a family who live on a farm. You know for a fact that the husband is a brute who rapes his wife and regularly beats his children. You also know of a notoriously unscrupulous multinational corporation, which wants to purchase the farm and use any means necessary to get rid of the brute. It is using the excuse of “liberating” the mother and children to achieve those ends.

Suppose further that, under pressure from the community, the husband has allowed the social worker into his house, and denies the presence of a belt on the premises. The social worker has not been able to get his hands on the belt. Perhaps the husband has hidden it. Perhaps the social worker, a pusillanimous individual, has simply overlooked it. In any case, you are not satisfied that things do not return to normal as soon as the social worker goes home.

Do you therefore help further the ends of the immoral multinational in order to bring the suffering of the beaten wife and abused children to an end? If you say yes, you do so in the knowledge that such an organization can only cause suffering in other ways, as the vehicle for exploitation there and elsewhere.

But if you say no, you are in effect saying that you accept that this poor woman and her children could be black and blue for the rest of their lives. That is not an easy thing for any decent person to live with...

...In the end, perhaps turning a blind eye would have been the moral thing to do. After all, many beaten women, despite everything, keep on loving the brute who beats them, as do their children. Ultimately, it is their choice, and to go knowingly against their wishes by jumping on the back of the multi-national corporation, which pretends to be helping them only to get their land, is really only to sink further into the moral quagmire."

[ 04-05-2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

Turning a blind eye to women and children being abused is NEVER the moral thing to do.

You can always put a corporation out of business...you can never bring back the lost life of a woman or child beaten to death, shot, or used as a shield by a cowardly soldier in his fight to keep the abusive man in power...you pay more to reverse the damage done to the children when they are turned into killers, addicts, wife beaters, whatever, as a result of the abuse they suffered growing up with it...you don't allow a legacy of hate to pass on to the next generation as something that is acceptable.

[ 04-05-2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Lil Lil ]

[Mordenheim]

Originally posted by Lil Lil: Turning a blind eye to women and children being abused is NEVER the moral thing to do. You can always put a corporation out of business...you can never bring back the lost life of a woman or child beaten to death, shot, or used as a shield by a cowardly soldier in his fight to keep the abusive man in power...you pay more to reverse the damage done to the children when they are turned into killers, addicts, wife beaters, whatever, as a result of the abuse they suffered growing up with it...you don't allow a legacy of hate to pass on to the next generation as something that is acceptable.

Amen

This whole idea that due to religion or culture it is acceptable to allow women and children to be abused and treated like slaves is garbage. That we should be "understanding" of radical Islam and the sensitivity of the male/woman relationship is the kind of mindset that allow's abuse to continue. It is never ok.

Oh and I don't care if it is a Iraqi or Bob down the street. If it is religion or caused by substance abuse.

[ 04-05-2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Mordenheim ]

[Mordenheim]

Originally posted by Animal: Quote: Originally posted by Mordenheim: "but they are fighting to maintain their right to believe in Islam, something that, by your own words, would be taken from them in a westernised culture" I must have speed read past this. This is the most insane thing I have read yet by anyone on any forum. I bet we have more people following Islam then France, Russia, Canada and Germany put together. You are seriously mixing thing's up here. The RADICAL form of OPPRESIVE islam would not be allowed in ANY civilized country. You are free to practice ANY religion in the United States you wish. You can even follow Satanism if you wish as long as NO ONE is hurt and no law is broken. The government here has no right to stop you from practicing you're faith including Islam. man o man....... I know people in Canada are not that naive. I meet them all the time down here in florida. I mean what the? You live in a westernised culture. What are you talking about?

Naive? People in Canada? Exactly what is your point here.

During my tenure here in the war forum, I have had seem heated debates with various different people, but none have gotten to me quite like this.

Is the United States that perfect that they can decide for the rest of the world what they can and cannot do? You talk about the treatment of women in Iraq. I ask you this...do you know exactly how many women are beaten each day in the US or Canada or Britain or Germany or France, or any western culture because the men have the freedom to go out to the bar and get pissed each night, come home and beat the living crap out of their girlfriends or wives?

Before the US, or any other nation for that matter starts passing judgement, they need to take a long hard look at their own culture. How many women in the United States are being beaten tonight?

We have no right, NO RIGHT, to pass judgement on Iraq, when we are no better than they are.[/QUOTE]Oh give me a freaking break Animal. We have law's against not that allow you to beat you're wife or child. We have centers for anger control and we do EVERYTHING possible to prevent it. We have shelters for abused women and children to try to hide at. We have program after program. Do not try that here. You can not stop abuse totally but we damn sure try. Our culture does not in ANY way condone such behavior. Find another nation that tries harder to stop abusive behavior. Give me a break.

It is a big difference from SANCTIONED, LEGAL, RELIGIOUS, allowance of. A man has to hope his wife don't call the police here. A woman in Iraq and other radical Islamic countries are lucky if they do not get raped by their husband AND police. Rape is a VERY serious crime here. It will ruin you're life. It should and I am glad we take it very serious.

To even compare makes me sick. If you can not see the vast difference of ILLEGAL abuse and SANCTIONED/RELIGIOUS right to make you're wife a slave then... friend I wonder if there is ANY hope