Is it France or Vichy France we have today?

[johnny]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Don't forget that what kept the Russians going, was the massive amount of aid that the US sent via the ship convoys to the Deep water ports in the north of the Soviet Union! Had it not been for those convoys, the Russians would have folded like cheap tents in 1942! There would have been no counter-attack.

That's a little over the top dude, the defenders of Stalingrad didn't get any materials whatsoever from the Allies, unless you wanna call a few loads of canned hams a second front ? The Russians kept moving their tankfactories, and produced lots of (bad) tanks day in day out. True, there were convoys to Russia, but they weren't half as important as you claim they were. It was the Russian mentality, and their will to survive, that eventually drove the Germans out of Russia. Stalingrad was THE turningpoint in WW2, not Normandy. The Germans were already losing the war at that moment.

[Sir Taliesin]

I don't know how over the top it was. The only thing the Russians had in ANY abundance was manpower. They used that extremely will I might add. I believe they were some of the first Suicide Bombers! The tactic was to strap dynamite to their bodies and go hunt some tanks! Other than that, they din't have much else. As you said they were able to move their factories east of the Urals. But you can't set up and start manufacturing tanks in a matter of days. We shipped planes, tanks, artillary pieces, food and bullets to them so they could hold on. I believe we still had some rifles that were left over from the some contracts with the Czarist forces in WW-I. Those were sent as well.

Also I didn't mean to take anything away from the defenders of Stalingrad, but didn't the battle happen during the winter? Since Germany attacked the USSR late in the summer, they weren't ready for the Russian winter. They had no winter gear. The Germans were at a great disadvantage once the snow started flying.

Edit: I might add that it wasn't just the US in those convoys. I believe the Royal Navy supplied most of the destroyer escorts and also supplied air cover for those convoys, without which they'd have never gotten through! But the bulk of the material that was shipped in came from the US.

[ 02-17-2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Wutang: I still remember France denying the US access to fly over France to bomb Libya back in the 1980's. We had to fly our bombers from England through Gibralter. Which was just silly.

Maybe it was the bad karma from this act that caused the French Embassy in Libya to conveniently explode during the U.S. bombing. [img]graemlins/evilhaha.gif[/img] Maybe it was one too many cowboy movies for Ronnie RayGun. The world may never know.

As for offending the French on the board - I'll not waver in saying anything for fear of *that.* Why? Because we yanks get trounced upon, teased, poked, prodded, harrangued, villified (and a bunch of other unseemly bashing-oriented verbs I can't be bothered ty type out right now) all the time on this board. If you can dish it out.....

[Luvian]

Ok.... enough with the France bashing... That's very hypocritical of most of you. We all saw the walks for peace that happened not long ago. The majority of the citizens in most countries Don't want a war. Same thing in France.

What is the difference between France and the other Countries? France politician decided to take an anti war policy. So what? Just because french politician are against the war, does it mean that all French are cowards and evil pro-sadam people? Wasn't it someone from the UK that said he was mad at his politicians for wanting war even thought most of the population is against it? Would you be insulting the Uk people, too, if their politicians where anti-war? What about the people that walked for peace? Are they all evil cowards, too? Are you anti-war family members and friends evil cowards, too?

So why is is that France, and the people from France are being singled out?

Country bashing is illegal here. If you have a problem with a country's politics, blame it on the politicians, not the people.

[Timber Loftis]

Luvian, I don't think ANY post here bashed the French as a people or the French folks on this board - including mine. In the USA we probably see more identity between people and their government - which is why we say "we" a lot when the USA acts. On the other hand, in my travels I've noticed folks from other places say "our government" or just "[insert name of country]".

But, the historical statements definately go to the politicians, as do all of the statements regarding the current problems in Iraq. I think all Ironworkers quickly wise up on these forums and get over prejudices such as "a french person = the french position on the war."

In the end, we are all tossing about the ideas of our politicians, and any argument we are having is about whether *they* are right or wrong.

In truth, in all my life I have never thought of France as divisive or opposed to the USA. It's interesting that despite prejudices that may be carried about the citizens of France and the USA, I never once thought I would find our *governments* in such disagreement. It's interesting that in the modern day such bedrock long-time alliances are being tested so.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Luvian, I don't think ANY post here bashed the French as a people or the French folks on this board - including mine.

And I think you didn't pay much attention to what you where reading, then... Take a look at the recent posts, again. You'll see they make no dinstinction between the country and the people. Here are a few nice examples:

Sorry but had to bring this up but anyone else find it interesting that while France has no problems standing firm against British and Americans, they seem to bend over backwards to appease dictators and despots?

I can oppose President Bush for wanting to go to war in Iraq. France can't - they haven't earned the right.

As for offending the French on the board - I'll not waver in saying anything for fear of *that.*

If you have something against the French president, say something like "I disagree with (insert name here)". If you have something against Bush, you say something like "I disagree with Bush". You don't bash the whole country.

[ 02-17-2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Timber Loftis]

You are wrong, and I will address it in a PM.

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: As for offending the French on the board - I'll not waver in saying anything for fear of *that.* Why? Because we yanks get trounced upon, teased, poked, prodded, harrangued, villified (and a bunch of other unseemly bashing-oriented verbs I can't be bothered ty type out right now) all the time on this board. If you can dish it out.....

Timber, so far I know only Masklinn and myself as French members of this board, and I challenge you to find one post from either of us bashing the US.

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Also, while some of us are a bit upset at the French position ... Love Ya Moiraine!

And don't you think many of us French are not 'a bit upset' too at the US position ? From here, Bush and Powell look much like a couple of very bad mannered kids having a tantrum about having been denied a new toy, and in dire need of a good spanking ...

Luvya Ronn.

About WWII and De Gaulle. You don't seem to recall that there was a reason he became the uncontested leader after WWII : he had been organizing and directing the French underground resisting forces (the "Résistance"). I should know, my grandfather was an army Captain at the time, worked much for the Résistance - even got the "Légion d'honneur" (the highest civilian decoration) for his deeds during WWII.

Originally posted by Wutang: Yorick and others - hehe I was merely poking fun when I said I was ashamed that we liberated France in WWII.

Wutang, you too look to me as a brat with bad manners in need of a thorough spanking, if that is the kind of humour you enjoy. Has no one taught you courtesy ?

[Timber Loftis]

Moraine, my point was not that any French-person had actually bashed the US or its citizens. Rather, we should be able to have thickened skins about our government else we can't discuss *anything.*

Look, I recognize your Bush/Powell bashing (above) as not directed at me. Likewise, if you said "the US" or "America" I would realize you meant my government and not "Timber Loftis."

And, yes, I will say no mod comes to the defense of the good ol' US of A when a trouncing begins. But, why should they - it's our *government* not us. Same with France. If any posts I made seemed like I was speaking to you, a French citizen, then I did not speak clearly enough. Andy Rooney clearly meant "the French foreign ministry" when he said "they" have no right to object to Bush's actions. Likewise, so did I when I spoke of "France" generally.

Look, I get emotionally involved when Bush, the USA, etc. are bashed, because as a citizen I feel a certain connection - and, to a degree, they are a reflection of me and me of them. But if you and I can't criticize each other's governments we've banned all political discussion on this board.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Moiraine: De Gaulle... there was a reason he became the uncontested leader after WWII : he had been organizing and directing the French underground resisting forces (the "Résistance"). I should know, my grandfather was an army Captain at the time, worked much for the Résistance - even got the "Légion d'honneur" (the highest civilian decoration) for his deeds during WWII.

Congrats on your grandfather's honor! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I do remember De Gaulle's place in history even if I didn't put it well. [img]smile.gif[/img]