War. - Page 4

10-08-2001, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker:
I haven't heard about Prime Minister Blair going into hiding. He was in Pakistan last week. We send Colin Powell to Pakistan. We should be sending the President.

Mark

We have a completely different type of government than the British do.

Mr. Powell is THE person that goes to places like that. That's one of his duties. Our structure of government is just different... Are you trying to say America is a coward? Comparing our Government or President to Bin-bin doesn't hold water.

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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

[This message has been edited by Ziroc (edited 10-08-2001).]

10-08-2001, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:

Sure, let us do that. Let us eradicate it in all its forms, including that masquerading as the legitimate use of military force at times when it is unnecessary and in ways in which it is inappropriate.

Inappropriate, in YOUR Opinion.

------------------
Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-08-2001, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ziroc:
Inappropriate, in YOUR Opinion.

Was talking in generic terms, Ziroc. Wasn't referring to any particular incident.

Black Knight · 10-08-2001, 10:56 PM

You ask about what has been going on since 1993? Several American Targets have been hit by forces that bin Laden has taken credit for, from African Embassies to a Submarine last summer, and that is to name a few. In the past, we've done retalitory strikes, sending a missle to take out a munitions site or an airstrip. Bush summed that up with his quote, "We are not going to shoot a 2 Million dollar missle into an empty 10 dollar tent."

I've tried very hard to stay out of these threads. I respect everyone's opinion, from G'Kar, to Yorick, to even 250 (did I really just say that?). There are no right answers.

I'd like to say if we just ignor it, act like it never happened and just try to rebuild, it would be ok. Tell that to the families who are coming to grips that their mother/father/sister/brother/friend/lover will never come home.

I would like to think if we just leveled the whole place, came in with tanks and Fighter pilots and not stopped til we had DNA proof that bin Laden was dead, that it would end the problem of terrorism. Tell that to the Soldiers who have to go over there, to never come home.

Tell that to the Innocent people of Afganistan. Or the Muslims accross the world who are paying for the sins of another. There is a word for that. Some would call it fear. I call it Racism, which is just as big of sin as Terrorism. Those are the people whom are afraid to leave their homes. For fear of being stopped, questioned, attacked because of what they look like, to never come home.

There are no easy answers to the question of Terrorism. There are a lot of hard Questions to answer. Is the Right Choice necessarily the Best Choice?

The United States of America is in a Classic Catch 22 Situation - no matter what we do, no one will really be happy. We go to war, people will die, and the children of those we kill overseas, will they praise whatever diety they praise because we killed alleged Terrorists? No. They will be the next generation of American hated. Not because we are Capitalists, or don't look like them or follow the same creed as they do. They will hate us because their Father/Brother/Uncle left one day, to never come home.

Is we don't go to War? To not Punish those responsible ... what is to stop them from doing it again. Would it not further encourage that action?

There is no right/wrong - good/bad in war. There are a lot of different Patriotic Quotes, Flag waving type things I could say right now to sum this up. But all I want right now is my friend who is in the Air Force, I want him to able to come home.

Just my thoughts, and you are free to disagree/agree. All I ask is for respect for me and my thoughts.

Thanks,

Henry

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 10-09-2001).]

250 · 10-08-2001, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Knight:
You ask about what has been going on since 1993? Several American Targets have been hit by forces that bin Laden has taken credit for, from African Embassies to a Submarine last summer, and that is to name a few. In the past, we've done retalitory strikes, sending a missle to take out a munitions site or an airstrip. Bush summed that up with his quote, "We are not going to shoot a 2 Million dollar missle into an empty 10 dollar ten."

I've tried very hard to stay out of these threads. I respect everyone's opinion, from G'Kar, to Yorick, to even 250 (did I really just say that?). There are no right answers.

I'd like to say if we just ignor it, act like it never happened and just try to rebuild, it would be ok. Tell that to the families who are coming to grips that their mother/father/sister/brother/friend/lover will never come home.

I would like to think if we just leveled the whole place, came in with tanks and Fighter pilots and not stopped til we had DNA proof that bin Laden was dead, that it would end the problem of terrorism. Tell that to the Soldiers who have to go over there, to never come home.

Tell that to the Innocent people of Afganistan. Or the Muslims accross the world who are paying for the sins of another. There is a word for that. Some would call it fear. I call it Racism, which is just as big of sin as Terrorism. Those are the people whom are afraid to leave their homes. For fear of being stopped, questioned, attacked because of what they look like, to never come home.

There are no easy answers to the question of Terrorism. There are a lot of hard Questions to answer. Is the Right Choice necessarily the Best Choice?

The United States of America is in a Classic Catch 22 Situation - no matter what we do, no one will really be happy. We go to war, people will die, and the children of those we kill overseas, will they praise whatever diety they praise because we killed alleged Terrorists? No. They will be the next generation of American hated. Not because we are Capitalists, or don't look like them or follow the same creed as they do. They will hate us because their Father/Brother/Uncle left one day, to never come home.

Is we don't go to War? To not Punish those responsible ... what is to stop them from doing it again. Would it not further encourage that action?

There is no right/wrong - good/bad in war. There are a lot of different Patriotic Quotes, Flag waving type things I could say right now to sum this up. But all I want right now is my friend who is in the Air Force, I want him to able to come home.

Just my thoughts, and you are free to disagree/agree. All I ask is for respect for me and my thoughts.

Thanks,

Henry

very well said, covered so many sides

except the ...250 (did I just say that?) part

I will hunt you down...

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-08-2001, 11:50 PM

You have my respect for your thoughts, Henry.

To touch on a couple of points, you mentioned Bin Laden's activities since 93. That point has been brought up before, by people quick to claim that because he has been at large since 93 we have no choice now except war. That is a bogus argument and here is why.

Take for instance the analogy of a domestic criminal. There are all kinds of criminals at large in the US right now. There are thousands of outstanding bench warrants for the arrest of criminals who have skipped bail, not shown up for court when summoned, etc. Most of those are relatively minor offenses, and the police are in no particular hurry to find them. They are content to wait till chance turns those people over, typically from a new arrest or a minor traffic stop which reveals the outstanding warrant through routine checks. Some of them will be lucky enough to fall through the cracks and will never be picked up. Exceptions are made for the more serious criminals. The more serious the charge, the more effort and resources are expended to locate these people and bring them to justice.

The situation with Bin Laden since 93 is analogous to a domestic criminal who has been wanted for relatively minor charges (compared to his most recent endeavor) since 93, who then goes out and commits a particularly gruesome murder. The fact that the government did not spend the necessary effort to pick him up before on his minor charges does NOT mean that it cannot now do so, with the changed situation and the greater motivation. This is the essential point that the "he's been at large since 93" argument overlooks.

Which brings us to the other point I wanted to address. The war approach has been justified repeatedly on the grounds that we cannot sit back and do nothing. Well, i agree wholeheartedly that we cannot sit back and do nothing, but to claim that the only other option is a war in Afghanistan is totally in error.

Think of how mighty this country is, how powerful our resources are. Think of how much more mighty those resources are when allied with other countries. Our options are limited only by our imaginations. If we are prepared to expend the massive amount of energy required to wage war, surely we could afford to expend the resources necessary for any number of other possible approaches, including for example covert assassination efforts against Bin Laden and his organization.

However, instead of fully exploring such other options, Bush seems determined to follow in daddy's footsteps by playing with his military toys, determined to pursue the very course, military action, that will maximize further terrorist hatred against us. I think it an unimaginative, shortsighted approach that will come back to bite us, sooner or later.

Black Knight · 10-09-2001, 12:22 AM

Just because we didn't go after him with covert military action after the other actions doesn't mean we didn't follow the other paths then. We will never know if we didn't try to infiltrate, and I don't believe we have really ever acknowledged the current power there. And I'm sure we aren't a big supporter of much of anything there already, so the only thing we really support there is humanitarian efforts.

And just because he has gone on to bigger and badder crimes, doesn't mean he can be brought in to pay for those earilier crimes.

Think of it this way. You find out that some cousin of yours accross the country, you know, the one whom you don't really know, and wouldn't if your Grandmother didn't tell you. Well, you found out this One Guy (call him Ben) picked a fight and cut him on the shoulder and he was in the hospital room for it. It's sad, and you're not happy with it, but no big deal. You get over it relatively quickly. Then the next day, you find out that Ben just raped your sister. In your house. Now, it's time to find that SOB and let him know your pain.

I do agree that I wish I knew that we haven't tried other options. But if we have tried the covert things and they failed, would we ever find out? I don't think so. Who knows.

BK

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-09-2001, 12:30 AM

The short answer is that we could not have tried very hard, in just 28 days. If we were serious about other approaches, we would not have started the military approach so soon.

skywalker · 10-09-2001, 11:12 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by skywalker:
I hate to say it, but we are hiding our VP aren't we?
Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by Ziroc:

That is completely different Skywalker, and you KNOW it!

Oh wait! I know the reason!

If the puppet master dies - what happens to the dummy?

Mark

Cloudbringer · 10-09-2001, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Knight:
You ask about what has been going on since 1993? Several American Targets have been hit by forces that bin Laden has taken credit for, from African Embassies to a Submarine last summer, and that is to name a few. In the past, we've done retalitory strikes, sending a missle to take out a munitions site or an airstrip. Bush summed that up with his quote, "We are not going to shoot a 2 Million dollar missle into an empty 10 dollar tent."

I've tried very hard to stay out of these threads. I respect everyone's opinion, from G'Kar, to Yorick, to even 250 (did I really just say that?). There are no right answers.

I'd like to say if we just ignor it, act like it never happened and just try to rebuild, it would be ok. Tell that to the families who are coming to grips that their mother/father/sister/brother/friend/lover will never come home.

I would like to think if we just leveled the whole place, came in with tanks and Fighter pilots and not stopped til we had DNA proof that bin Laden was dead, that it would end the problem of terrorism. Tell that to the Soldiers who have to go over there, to never come home.

Tell that to the Innocent people of Afganistan. Or the Muslims accross the world who are paying for the sins of another. There is a word for that. Some would call it fear. I call it Racism, which is just as big of sin as Terrorism. Those are the people whom are afraid to leave their homes. For fear of being stopped, questioned, attacked because of what they look like, to never come home.

There are no easy answers to the question of Terrorism. There are a lot of hard Questions to answer. Is the Right Choice necessarily the Best Choice?

The United States of America is in a Classic Catch 22 Situation - no matter what we do, no one will really be happy. We go to war, people will die, and the children of those we kill overseas, will they praise whatever diety they praise because we killed alleged Terrorists? No. They will be the next generation of American hated. Not because we are Capitalists, or don't look like them or follow the same creed as they do. They will hate us because their Father/Brother/Uncle left one day, to never come home.

Is we don't go to War? To not Punish those responsible ... what is to stop them from doing it again. Would it not further encourage that action?

There is no right/wrong - good/bad in war. There are a lot of different Patriotic Quotes, Flag waving type things I could say right now to sum this up. But all I want right now is my friend who is in the Air Force, I want him to able to come home.

Just my thoughts, and you are free to disagree/agree. All I ask is for respect for me and my thoughts.

Thanks,

Henry

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 10-09-2001).]

Nice post. I've really missed you hon, good to see you joining in again!
You always weigh both sides, say what you think and sound like the diplomat anyway. Very nice.

Cloudy

------------------

Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

10-08-2001, 10:56 PM	#34
Black Knight Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Delaware OH USA Age: 48 Posts: 3,168	You ask about what has been going on since 1993? Several American Targets have been hit by forces that bin Laden has taken credit for, from African Embassies to a Submarine last summer, and that is to name a few. In the past, we've done retalitory strikes, sending a missle to take out a munitions site or an airstrip. Bush summed that up with his quote, "We are not going to shoot a 2 Million dollar missle into an empty 10 dollar tent." I've tried very hard to stay out of these threads. I respect everyone's opinion, from G'Kar, to Yorick, to even 250 (did I really just say that?). There are no right answers. I'd like to say if we just ignor it, act like it never happened and just try to rebuild, it would be ok. Tell that to the families who are coming to grips that their mother/father/sister/brother/friend/lover will never come home. I would like to think if we just leveled the whole place, came in with tanks and Fighter pilots and not stopped til we had DNA proof that bin Laden was dead, that it would end the problem of terrorism. Tell that to the Soldiers who have to go over there, to never come home. Tell that to the Innocent people of Afganistan. Or the Muslims accross the world who are paying for the sins of another. There is a word for that. Some would call it fear. I call it Racism, which is just as big of sin as Terrorism. Those are the people whom are afraid to leave their homes. For fear of being stopped, questioned, attacked because of what they look like, to never come home. There are no easy answers to the question of Terrorism. There are a lot of hard Questions to answer. Is the Right Choice necessarily the Best Choice? The United States of America is in a Classic Catch 22 Situation - no matter what we do, no one will really be happy. We go to war, people will die, and the children of those we kill overseas, will they praise whatever diety they praise because we killed alleged Terrorists? No. They will be the next generation of American hated. Not because we are Capitalists, or don't look like them or follow the same creed as they do. They will hate us because their Father/Brother/Uncle left one day, to never come home. Is we don't go to War? To not Punish those responsible ... what is to stop them from doing it again. Would it not further encourage that action? There is no right/wrong - good/bad in war. There are a lot of different Patriotic Quotes, Flag waving type things I could say right now to sum this up. But all I want right now is my friend who is in the Air Force, I want him to able to come home. Just my thoughts, and you are free to disagree/agree. All I ask is for respect for me and my thoughts. Thanks, Henry [This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 10-09-2001).]

10-08-2001, 11:50 PM	#36
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown Banned User Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: ... Posts: 694	You have my respect for your thoughts, Henry. To touch on a couple of points, you mentioned Bin Laden's activities since 93. That point has been brought up before, by people quick to claim that because he has been at large since 93 we have no choice now except war. That is a bogus argument and here is why. Take for instance the analogy of a domestic criminal. There are all kinds of criminals at large in the US right now. There are thousands of outstanding bench warrants for the arrest of criminals who have skipped bail, not shown up for court when summoned, etc. Most of those are relatively minor offenses, and the police are in no particular hurry to find them. They are content to wait till chance turns those people over, typically from a new arrest or a minor traffic stop which reveals the outstanding warrant through routine checks. Some of them will be lucky enough to fall through the cracks and will never be picked up. Exceptions are made for the more serious criminals. The more serious the charge, the more effort and resources are expended to locate these people and bring them to justice. The situation with Bin Laden since 93 is analogous to a domestic criminal who has been wanted for relatively minor charges (compared to his most recent endeavor) since 93, who then goes out and commits a particularly gruesome murder. The fact that the government did not spend the necessary effort to pick him up before on his minor charges does NOT mean that it cannot now do so, with the changed situation and the greater motivation. This is the essential point that the "he's been at large since 93" argument overlooks. Which brings us to the other point I wanted to address. The war approach has been justified repeatedly on the grounds that we cannot sit back and do nothing. Well, i agree wholeheartedly that we cannot sit back and do nothing, but to claim that the only other option is a war in Afghanistan is totally in error. Think of how mighty this country is, how powerful our resources are. Think of how much more mighty those resources are when allied with other countries. Our options are limited only by our imaginations. If we are prepared to expend the massive amount of energy required to wage war, surely we could afford to expend the resources necessary for any number of other possible approaches, including for example covert assassination efforts against Bin Laden and his organization. However, instead of fully exploring such other options, Bush seems determined to follow in daddy's footsteps by playing with his military toys, determined to pursue the very course, military action, that will maximize further terrorist hatred against us. I think it an unimaginative, shortsighted approach that will come back to bite us, sooner or later.

10-09-2001, 12:22 AM	#37
Black Knight Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Delaware OH USA Age: 48 Posts: 3,168	Just because we didn't go after him with covert military action after the other actions doesn't mean we didn't follow the other paths then. We will never know if we didn't try to infiltrate, and I don't believe we have really ever acknowledged the current power there. And I'm sure we aren't a big supporter of much of anything there already, so the only thing we really support there is humanitarian efforts. And just because he has gone on to bigger and badder crimes, doesn't mean he can be brought in to pay for those earilier crimes. Think of it this way. You find out that some cousin of yours accross the country, you know, the one whom you don't really know, and wouldn't if your Grandmother didn't tell you. Well, you found out this One Guy (call him Ben) picked a fight and cut him on the shoulder and he was in the hospital room for it. It's sad, and you're not happy with it, but no big deal. You get over it relatively quickly. Then the next day, you find out that Ben just raped your sister. In your house. Now, it's time to find that SOB and let him know your pain. I do agree that I wish I knew that we haven't tried other options. But if we have tried the covert things and they failed, would we ever find out? I don't think so. Who knows. BK

10-09-2001, 12:30 AM	#38
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown Banned User Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: ... Posts: 694	The short answer is that we could not have tried very hard, in just 28 days. If we were serious about other approaches, we would not have started the military approach so soon.

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