Did we even know the issues?

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: ]See my predictions on the predictions thread -- and stop smirking about it. [img]graemlins/whackya.gif[/img] We all know you want to see death and destruction, as do all COC's, but you act like you need a fiddle to play while the world burns to the ground.

Strike up the band, the Charlie Daniels Band that is

Let's all join in:

The Devil went down to Georgia(Ok Alabama)
He was looking for a soul(vote) to steal
He was in a bind
Way behind and willi'n to make a deal.
He came across an Crusty Old Coot sawing on a Fiddle and Playing It Hot. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[shamrock_uk]

@John D: I take your point. I just find it very difficult to consider election issues anything other than concrete policies (eg. We're gonna build another hospital here, have more police there etc etc).

On the one hand, if issues like faith are important to the American voter then you are correct and they are as real an issue as anything else.

On the other hand of course, I'm sure it is possible to argue that this simply reflects the need for certain portions of the electorate to make a bit of a leap into the 21st century (or even the 20th...) and look beyond superstition and faith when choosing their leaders.

Djinn, nice post.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis:

See my predictions on the predictions thread -- and stop smirking about it. [img]graemlins/whackya.gif[/img] We all know you want to see death and destruction, as do all COC's, but you act like you need a fiddle to play while the world burns to the ground.


[img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]


To quote my favorite actor come "French Wannabe"

"Ouch, I think I might have deserved that"

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Well I really have to hand it to the Bush campaign when it comes to managing those issues. - He runs a campaign where massive record deficits driving the dollar down are acceptable. Which as a percentage of the GDP is not a record at all but actually historicly average at around 40% - He runs a campaign where he states how much better he is at fighting terror than the Commie Democrats yet the terrorists leader is still making television appearances 3 years later. Yet who has been completely unable to pull off even a single attack in his most hated enemies home land - He runs a campaign equating stem cell research to abortion and in effect would be letting the rest of the high tech world lap you on scientific research. And where the whole issue of stem cell research is misunderstood and so are the restrictions being imposed - He runs a campaign where you convince people that the opponent, who actually went to Vietnam, is perceived as more cowardly than the guy that didn't go at all. Whent to vietnam, put himselfin for his own medals so that he could short tour out after spending only 1 semester in country...and who it now lookslike was given a Bad Conduct discharge and will not sign his form 180 to release the information to the public...something Bush did right away - He runs a campaign shouting out to everyone how his opponent is a tax and spend Liberal so loudly that the people don't even notice that Bush himself is a cut taxes and spend MORE Conservative. Wrong again, I don't believe he ever accused Kerry of being tax and spend..tax and then tax some more yes...and being a massechusets liberal yes, but tax and spend wasn't the issue. As for spending more, what do you expect after 10 years of military budget cuts? Attack, Attack, Attack.. and when the opponent is set to defend attack again. The issues did not matter. The republicans had next to no attacks compared to the lefts assault on the Bush Cheney ticket....everyone from Moveon.org to Bruce Springsteen to Michael moore were launching attacks at the president. What Kerry received in return was barely noticable.

Djinn theres a whole different side to every argument and your posts were decidedly un-balanced...and in some cases completely untrue.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: @John D: I take your point. I just find it very difficult to consider election issues anything other than concrete policies (eg. We're gonna build another hospital here, have more police there etc etc). On the one hand, if issues like faith are important to the American voter then you are correct and they are as real an issue as anything else. On the other hand of course, I'm sure it is possible to argue that this simply reflects the need for certain portions of the electorate to make a bit of a leap into the 21st century (or even the 20th...) and look beyond superstition and faith when choosing their leaders. Djinn, nice post.

There maybe a need for one thing or another, but who gets to decide what those things are? We have decided that each person can and should decide that for themselves.

I'm a Conservative Christian, my faith only plays a part in chosing the Leader of our Country to the extent that I pray for wisdom. I don't vote for or against a Candidate because they profess a faith in God through Christ.
The most important Isssue for me was are they a good leader, I base that on my 43 years of experience in dealing with people and orginizations that have had good and bad leaders. A good leader is decisive they will listen to others, but listening is not agreeing and copitulating(sp?) to other side just because they (the other side) says something. A good leader adapts as they see the need, without controdicting or abanding their personal beliefs(belief used here in the Nonreligious sense). A good leader says what they mean and means what they say, No Happy Horse Manure just to get a vote, or score a point, make a sale, etc.. Now I've known both men and women in my life that fit into outline above, Some have run small companies, some large corpations, some civic groups, some class rooms. But all of the good ones pocesed what I have outlined, everyone that was a failure as a leader didn't pocess any or many of what I have outlined. In short I don't agree with everything President Bush has said or done, But I know where he stood, I knew what I was getting. For me it is more important that President Bush came out and said what he stood for. I also Knew what Kerry stood for, but the differance was Kerry didn't, couldn't, wouldn't take a stand. Where I come from "you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything."

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: On the other hand of course, I'm sure it is possible to argue that this simply reflects the need for certain portions of the electorate to make a bit of a leap into the 21st century (or even the 20th...) and look beyond superstition and faith when choosing their leaders. Djinn, nice post.

Now that is just downright rude to anyone who has faith in a religion and shows a total lack of tolerance to other peoples opinions

It is quite possible to be religious and yet still part of the 21st century
and requiring your elected leaders to share ones moral and spiritual values is as valid as any other electoral requirement.

[John D Harris]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: [qb] - He runs a campaign equating stem cell research to abortion and in effect would be letting the rest of the high tech world lap you on scientific research. And where the whole issue of stem cell research is misunderstood and so are the restrictions being imposed

MagiK you forgot the 1st and only President to FUND, as in spend US tax money on Stem cell research.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: On the other hand of course, I'm sure it is possible to argue that this simply reflects the need for certain portions of the electorate to make a bit of a leap into the 21st century (or even the 20th...) and look beyond superstition and faith when choosing their leaders.

I dunno if superstiiton and/or faith is the problem, but rather the need to control other people on the basis of superstition or faith is the problem, particularly when choosing a leader or leglislating by referendum. Some people who seem to think and behave as if we do not live in a diverse plurality rooted in a very basic concept of individual liberty correspondingly chose to vote this way as well.

[Timber Loftis]

The republicans had next to no attacks compared to the lefts assault on the Bush Cheney ticket....everyone from Moveon.org to Bruce Springsteen to Michael moore were launching attacks at the president. What Kerry received in return was barely noticable.

[img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] I encourage you to call up friends in Wisconsin Minnesota Iowa Ohio and Florida and confirm that.

WHile I will readily admit that what "attacks there were" from the repubs were made in those states...the attacks made by the left came from all over and went all over, not just to battle ground states..from algore Schreaching that Bush betrayed us to the hate filled spew from Michael Moore.