FOX News: Should Kerry be excommunicated for heresy?

[Grojlach]

*snort*
And another hilarious display of cheap opportunism during these election... Cheap publicity stunt, ahoy!

Should Kerry be Excommunicated for Heresy?
Monday, July 12, 2004

This is a partial transcript from "HANNITY & COLMES", July 9, 2004, that has been edited for clarity.

ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: Well, just 116 days left until Americans go to the polls on November 2 and put John Kerry and John Edwards into the White House.

MONICA CROWLEY, GUEST CO-HOST: Not so fast, Colmes!

COLMES: We'll see.

But how will John Kerry's stance on abortion affect his support within the Catholic community? Recently, a Catholic attorney filed heresy charges against Kerry, accusing him of bringing a most serious scandal to the American public by receiving communion as a pro-choice Catholic.

If the church decides to press heresy charges, the Senator could be excommunicated.

We're now joined by canon lawyer and the man who filed the suit, Marc Balestrieri. Marc, thank you for being on the program tonight.

MARC BALESTRIERI, FILED SUIT AGAINST KERRY: Thank you for having me.

COLMES: Why are you doing this?


BALESTRIERI: I'm fed up.

COLMES: With what?

BALESTRIERI: It's been 31 years, Alan, since Roe v. Wade and since American Catholic politicians have continued to persist in professing a doctrine, a heresy against the core tenet of the Christian and Catholic faith.

At the same time, it's -- nothing has really changed in 31 years. It's come to a head this year, and it's just become very critical.

COLMES: So it just so happens that a Democrat who's a Catholic, named John Kerry from Boston, whose archdiocese you're suing, is running for president. And you happen, I guess, not to be supporting him.

Clearly, there's a political backdrop to this in a presidential year.

BALESTRIERI: Clearly, there are political ramifications, but clearly, also, Senator Kerry has been and is the most public and visible Catholic politician out there.

There are other pro-choice Catholic politicians. But unlike any of the other ones, Senator Kerry has gone out of his way to make this an issue against the teaching of the church, in violation of the Vatican's directives and he is using Catholics to...

COLMES: Well, it sounds like you're making it an issue. I'm just wondering, will you -- should you also go after Catholic legislators who are for the death penalty?

BALESTRIERI: Those who are for the death penalty must apply the strict criteria of the Catholic Church, deciding whether or not there's absolutely no other way to protect the community apart from executing the criminal.

COLMES: But why single out John Kerry? There are many legislators who are pro-death penalty, and that's not what the church talks about.

There are many other legislators who agree with John Kerry on the issue of abortion who also happen to be in office. Maybe they're not running for president. So it's clear to me that you're singling out John Kerry because of politics?

BALESTRIERI: Alan, I think it's -- I think it's difficult if you're not a Catholic to understand the exact difference between abortion, which is a heresy, and capital punishment, which is not always the case.

Abortion is an intrinsically evil act. It can never be performed if it's direct and voluntary. Whereas capital punishment is only extrinsically evil, and under certain strict circumstances, it can be permitted. There's a great difference there.

CROWLEY: It's Monica Crowley here. You sound like you're more frustrated with the Catholic Church than you are with John Kerry in particular.

You cited over 30 years of the Catholic Church perhaps looking the other way on politicians who are pro-choice, who are out there saying that they're Roman Catholics as well. I think of the former governor of New York state, Mario Cuomo (search), who is a practicing Catholic.

Also came out very publicly and said he was pro choice and was going to fight for a woman's right to choose.

So is your problem really with the Catholic Church for not taking a tougher stand on American politicians?

BALESTRIERI: I think the problem really lies with those Catholic politicians, who claim to be Catholic in the public forum, and who publicly violates externally the precepts of the church and dare the Vatican to do something about it.

Senator Kerry, for instance, and not just Senator Kerry but other Catholic politicians, have been going very recently into churches, into the pews, with camera crews trailing them, really trying to see whether or not the church will do something about it. That's very grave.

CROWLEY: Now what -- what do you say to people who say, "Hey, look, anybody in America can believe whatever they want to believe. Everybody should take care of their own soul? So why should you or anyone else be concerned about John Kerry's soul?"

BALESTRIERI: I as a professional have decided that, as a duty and conscience, I have to stand up when no one else is and say things as they are, call a spade a spade.

To say that someone may have the right to choose abortion, to commit murder in the theology of the Catholic Church, is something which is absolutely intolerable. It has to stop. And it's a contradiction. It's not coherent.

CROWLEY: Now, my understanding is that the Boston Archdiocese, where you filed this lawsuit, the Boston archbishop is under no obligation to prosecute the case. So do you expect that you will hear from the archdiocese? Do you expect, in fact, to hear from the Vatican on this?

BALESTRIERI: Archbishop O'Malley (search), whom I respect greatly, has a serious obligation to view the facts of the case, which are indisputable, these external violations of canon and liturgical law, which are indisputable, to decide in justice and in truth what the best resolution of this case is.

And I submit that it is to declare Senator John Kerry excommunicated automatically for heresy.

CROWLEY: So you would like to see him excommunicated?

BALESTRIERI: Ultimately, any pro-choice Catholic politician. Pardon?

CROWLEY: You would like to see Kerry excommunicated?

BALESTRIERI: I'd like to see John F. Kerry recant his pro-choice position and return into the good graces of the church.

CROWLEY: So what do you make of the fact he's out there campaigning as being a Catholic, talking about his faith?

BALESTRIERI: It's a serious contradiction. Why all of a sudden did he say this Sunday, "I believe that conception does begin -- that life does begin at conception." It's only because of this suit. He's trying to avoid the confrontation.

COLMES: Marc, we -- we're just out of time. Thank you for being with us tonight.

NORTH: Michael, Ann, thank you both. Motion to close.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125408,00.html

NB - I know this is a subject that could invoke the wrath of the Inexorable Locksmiths (concerning the Moratorium), but let's try to keep things civilized, mmmkay?

[Djinn Raffo]

The article is over 3 months old.

It's not another hilarious display of cheap opportunism during these elections.. it's one of those old hilarious displays of cheap opportunism during these elections.

[Grojlach]

Woops, must have missed that little fact when it was first presented on the forums where I picked up on this story; sorry about that. Guess these really were Balestrieri's fifteen minutes of fame, since this story never really got anywhere in the months following his filed lawsuit.
I guess this could still have some merit as a follow-up topic to the Kerry vs Catholics debate though, without the personal attacks that is. The issue at hand is in any case current enough to deserve discussion.

[ 10-19-2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Besides we catholics can't even defend the idea because it would violate the prohibition on religious discussion....to defend the idea, one would by necessity have to be able to discuss the religious underpinnings of the move.


[ 10-19-2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Oblivion437]

Howabout sally-slapping Kerry for exploiting Dick Cheney's daughter for his Gay Marriage position?

Which was really no different from Bush's, but...

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Grojlach: NB - I know this is a subject that could invoke the wrath of the Inexorable Locksmiths (concerning the Moratorium), but let's try to keep things civilized, mmmkay?

This issue probably IS over the line since the the Catholic doctrine is central to the issue, but maybe the Mods will be willing to give us one more shot if we CAN conduct ourselves in a civil manner and just disagree and debate the issue. We'll see what happens.

Obviously nothing did come of the lawsuit (at least not yet), but as mentioned in the previous thread, the leadership of the Catholic church IS taking a pretty firm stand against Kerry's position on abortion. I made the statement in the previous thread that Kerry LOST the "Catholic vote" with his stance on abortion. There was some disagreement to that sentiment and arguments made that many Catholics do not agree completely with the "hard line doctrine" of the church. That may be true, but I am speaking as a person whose voting decisions are heavily influenced by my own religious beliefs.

I don't agree with the "official" Southern Baptist Association's stance on certain issues. I don't even agree with my own church or pastor on every single issue - but I still respect the opinion of my pastor AND the ideology of the SBA in general...so I WILL take their opinions into consideration when making my final decision. And I believe most Catholics will do the same. We aren't talking about the rigorous restrictions on birth controls, we are talking about abortion - an entirely different issue. And - in the end - I beleive most Catholics will decide they cannot support Kerry due to his stance on abortion coupled with the admonishments from the Catholic leaders.

Now that is just my opinion and is worth no more or less than anybody elses, but I do feel this issue is far more significant to the Catholic voters than most people realize.

In response to the title question, I do NOT believe that Kerry should be excommunicated for his stance on abortion. I don't know that I could even go so far as to say he should recant his position. I personally feel that abortion is murder - absolutely, positively. There is a discernable heartbeat from the fetus as early 7 days after conception. To me, a heartbeat DOES equal life (for a developing baby). However, despite my very strong feelings AGAINST abortion, if I were elected President, I could NOT impose my own religious views on the general public. For one thing, some women ARE going to have abortions, no matter what. If abortion clinics were outlawed, then it would simply revert back to the "back alley and coat hanger" days - significantly increasing the risk to the mother. So I would support the woman's right to make her own decision and to have that decision carried out in a clinically SAFE environment. I would make my personal opinion well known and provide heavy funding to ALTERNATIVES to abortion, but would still leave the option up to the mother herself.

[ 10-20-2004, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Cerek ]

[John D Harris]

As best I can tell it's up to the Catholic Church to decide this matter, it's their rules and their member they will or won't be excummunicat'n. Cummincate with him or don't, give him communion or don't, since I'm not Catholic it has no effect on me one way or the other.

Just a word of caution to anybody tak'n a position, check your hands & feet out real close, I doubt many of us have nail holes in either location.

[Sir Kenyth]

Just because there is no legal consequence for abortion doesn't mean the church is wrong. The church has a full right to make anything wrong it sees fit and excommunicate anyone for violating it's values. It does not however have the right to dictate their values to non-Catholics by making it Federal law. That is the job of all US citizens, Catholic and non-Catholic. Kerry is part of a political party, therefore the stands he takes on issues are not 100% his own. Perhaps he should have said that he does not personally believe in abortion as a Catholic, but will uphold the publics right to choose abortion as an American citizen. I believe one of the commandments is to honor your government and it's laws. Unless Kerry has committed an act of abortion, I don't think he has committed heresy. His unwillingness to express his spiritual belief because of political pressure is disheartening though.

[ 10-22-2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Sir Kenyth ]

[Timber Loftis]

Perhaps he should have said that he does not personally believe in abortion as a Catholic, but will uphold the publics right to choose abortion as an American citizen. I believe one of the commandments is to honor your government and it's laws. Unless Kerry has committed an act of abortion, I don't think he has committed heresy.

Well, here's the tricky problem. The right to abortion as a constitutional right only exists because the Supreme Court said so. If the Supreme Court were to reverse Roe v. Wade, then all of a sudden making abortions illegal would be a reasonable law, just like making parking in front of a fire hydrant illegal. Any laws by definition infringe on your liberty, which is allowed so long as they don't infringe on a fundamental right.

Kerry has said he is personally not for abortion, but he has also said he will appoint justices who uphold the rule of law. That's ducking the question, because on this topic, the Justices themselves *are* the rule of law.

Now, personally, I'm for Kerry on this issue, because I like abortions. I'm not so much pro choice, as I am pro-abortion. Just like I support spaying and neutering pets. Just like I think repeat sex offenders should have mandatory vasectomies, and just like I think women who keep popping out welfare babies with my tax dollars should have mandatory hysterectomies. I'm pretty much the anti-Catholic when it comes to procreation, because I want to see fewer human vermin on the planet, not more.

But, the answer isn't so simple as supporting another's right to their freedoms. If the Supreme Court decides this isn't a freedom anymore, the legislature will be free to put rules on it.

[See MagiK, I wasn't *completely* ignoring your emails. C'mon, admit it, you thought I didn't even understand this side of the argument.]

[ 10-22-2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Sir Kenyth]

You know, I'll be honest. I can't say I like abortion. Though it never will be, if it was my personal choice, I wouldn't do it. I have seen people who had abortions. It does terrible things to the conscience. It can make it impossible to have children again. At the very least, a potential person is being denied their chance at life. There are other options. It is not something to be taken lightly! At the same time it is not my place to dictate my view to everyone else. There are also many circumstances that may mitigate the option of abortion. At this time, the US population majority says that it is a matter of personal choice by the mother. It's not a crime. I will stand by it as such. As for whether it's heresy and a sin, that's between a person and their church or a person and god.