How prepared are we?

[Timber Loftis]

Problem with illegal immigrants is even once they are caught, they're let go. It's a farce on the enforcement side. Illegal immigrants show up in court all day everyday all across the country, but there is no directive for the court clerk to pick up the phone and call INS (now part of DHS), nor would INS bother to do anything about it anyway.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: And did you see how many of the original hijackers were in the country illegally?

I suppose that's exactly why I added "since 9/11" to my statement.

as many of the posters there mentioned INS is swamped and can't control the situation with illegals, and thanks to the ACLU police aren't even allowed to inquire about whether people in the country are legal. To look at the passport and try and do anything about it would invite another federal beurocracy to take over that in all likelihood would have turned them out on the street because they're overworked, understaffed, and have little to no available space to keep them until trial.

Well, I'll have to take your word for it, then. Though despite the fact that there's a chance their visas won't be checked, there's still a chance that they will be checked - and if you're really trying to prepare a terrorist attack, I reckon you'd want to make sure you can't be thwarted by such an element. Ah well, or perhaps I'm simply overestimating terrorists' cunning in general.

[ 07-26-2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Groj, you just reposted the article that Chewbacca posted... [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] ...don't you guys read that's been previously posted?

My bad - I hadn't read this topic since Chewie's previous article, and resumed reading it from the article you had posted on.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: http://michellemalkin.com/archives/000265.htm the article is dated July 23rd, so if you want verification from WNBC check out their archives from 2 days ago: WNBC investigative reporter Scott Weinberger reported on Joe Scarborough's MSNBC show tonight that the 14 Syrians on Northwest Flight 327 ALL had expired visas. He said his sources told him that law enforcement officials xeroxed the men's paperwork without looking at the dates. The visas had expired nearly a month earlier, according to Weinberger. This does not give me much confidence in the background checks that the Joint Terrorism Task Force, FBI, and LAPD may or may not have conducted on the men before letting them walk away. Would you trust the terrorism investigation of officials who apparently neglected to verify whether these men--coming from a designated state sponsor of terrorism, flying on a day on which Department of Homeland Security officials had issued a warning about a possible terrorist attack--WERE EVEN IN THE COUNTRY LEGALLY?!?!?! There's more in the linked article, but I thought this was to the point.

Curiously enough, the updates to this angle on that site puts into question the exact nature of these alleged expired visas:

Update: Avert your eyes if you are allergic, but some immigration law wonkery is necessary here. Some readers have technical questions for Scott Weinberger. For example:

As you must surely know, just because a person's visa has expired doesn't mean they are "out of status." A person is deemed to have "overstayed" when they have exceeded the time allowed him or her to stay in the U.S. by DHS/ICE. This time is put on the alien's I-94 card when they enter the U.S. In fact, if the Syrian musicians entered the U.S. on P-1 visas, as I suspect, the visa, i.e., the stamp in their passport issued by the U.S. Consulate, would have expired the instant it was used. Syrian P-1 visas can only be issued for a single entry...And even if they entered with B-2 visas, which can be issued to Syrians with more than one entry, just because the visa itself has expired doesn't mean they've overstayed. To determine whether the Syrians overstayed we'd have to see their I-94 cards.
Right. In lay parlance, partly because of journalists and politicians trying to avoid bureaucratese, "overstaying a visa" is commonly used interchangeably with overstaying the authorized "duration of stay." I assumed that Weinberger meant the latter and have put in a call asking him for clarification. (See more here for a tutorial on what a visa is and how the visa expiration date differs from the duration of stay date or status determined by DHS at port of entry.)


Update: Still no word back from Scott Weinberger. Meantime, these comments from reader BorderAgent are on point:

Musicians typically have a P-1 visa and without a doubt a Syrian, entering on a P-1 visa would only be allowed a single entry on that visa and the visa would then expire immediately upon entry. The Visa only allows them to enter, while the I-94 allows them to stay here for the duration, whatever that might be, of the I-94.
As Michelle said earlier, in lay parlance, "overstaying a visa" could also mean having an expired I-94. But even then it would not necessarily make them an overstay. You see, you can actually apply for an extension of your I-94 while you are here at an inland office with BCIS. And the funny thing is, when you apply for an extension you are legally allowed to stay, even if you documents expire, until you receive a response, which generally takes longer than 45 days. So basically, you can automatically extend your stay for up to 45 days if you merely receive a peice of paper saying that you are waiting for a response.

Hope that helps clear some things up. A good rule of thumb when dealing with the old INS, now the DHS, is to remember that we have the most strict laws of any agency but have a waiver for everything.


Yeah, that last sentence pretty much sums up our entire immigration (non) policy: A waiver for everything

[ 07-27-2004, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by Morgeruat: And did you see how many of the original hijackers were in the country illegally?

I suppose that's exactly why I added "since 9/11" to my statement.

as many of the posters there mentioned INS is swamped and can't control the situation with illegals, and thanks to the ACLU police aren't even allowed to inquire about whether people in the country are legal. To look at the passport and try and do anything about it would invite another federal beurocracy to take over that in all likelihood would have turned them out on the street because they're overworked, understaffed, and have little to no available space to keep them until trial.

Well, I'll have to take your word for it, then. Though despite the fact that there's a chance their visas won't be checked, there's still a chance that they will be checked - and if you're really trying to prepare a terrorist attack, I reckon you'd want to make sure you can't be thwarted by such an element. Ah well, or perhaps I'm simply overestimating terrorists' cunning in general. [/QUOTE]I think it's rather a case of overestimating the security offered by our gov't, if they were innocent (which current info about the story seems to corroborate), there is still no guarantee that they weren't still doing a dry run, and phoning/faxing/emailing/etc the info back to their friends who do have ties to groups that are interested in how extensive security checks on aircraft are.

[Morgeruat]

The Syrian singer of a band that was detained by the FBI's Terrorism Task Force for suspicious activity during a recent flight to Los Angeles has written about the "glorification" of suicide bombers to liberate Palestine.

Singer Nour Mehana's latest album includes the song "Um El Shaheed," or "Mother of a Martyr," said Aluma Dankowitz of the Middle East Media Research Institute.

The song tells the story of a woman who mourned her son's death until she realized that "he died for a good cause and he should be glorified for what he did," said Miss Dankowitz, who translated the song for The Washington Times.

Mr. Mehana, widely known as the Syrian Wayne Newton, sings to the mother that her son's goals are heroic and she should be happy he is dead.

"The song opens with the depiction of a mother crying over her son. He has said goodbye to his friends and family and is not going to come back. He went with a weapon in one palm and his heart in another palm and he's not going to come back," Miss Dankowitz said. "He went to fight to free Palestine, Golan Heights and South Lebanon."

The song ends with chants of "Allahu akbar," or "God is great," a common Muslim expression. Those were the last words shouted by a September 11 hijacker before the plane crashed into a Pennsylvania field and have been the last words of many suicide bombers in Israel.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...1758-3815r.htm

[Timber Loftis]

Isn't it sad that even when our suspicions are overreactionary and paranoid, they're still accurate?

[Davros]

That's hanging evidence is it TL?

Are you honestly telling me that if an Arab doesn't support Israel then he should never be allowed on a plane - gee - if that isn't 100% of them then it is over 90% surely? If you ask me, there is a kind of huge gap between your average Joe Arabia and the sort of extremist that hates US support of Israelii domination of Palestine so much that he hijacks some planes and flies them into buildings. Great - let's all take the Bin Laden is an Arab, therefore all Arabs are Bin Laden approach. Sheesh.

I got news for ya buddy - if your paranoia has convinced you there is no gap then you better close the borders, buckle up on the racial profiling, turn out the lights, and live in fear for the rest of our life. No amount of flexing of the milatary muscle is going to change your view that they are all out to get you.

[Stratos]

Interresting if it's true, but I doubt Jacobsen knew about it when she wrote her original article.

[Timber Loftis]

Davros, that's a lot to take out of what I said. Being against Israel is one thing -- that I can understand. But if you go singing about the wonderful sacrifice of a suicide bomber, that is another thing entirely. You downplaying what he sang and overplaying what I said by quite a large degree to fabricate a statement about paranoia.