Thoughtful explorations of BfC

[Oblivion437]

Alright, there's one thing about this whole debate that is frosting my cookies to high heaven!

It's magazine, ma-ga-zine! NOT CLIP! Clips are for loading magazines, which load chambers!

Get it right, there is no excuse!

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Yes.

I see.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Yes.

I see. [/QUOTE]Let me clarify. IF they had broken into the house without coming to the door, then there is a very good chance they would have been shot - especially if I had been in bed also when it happened.

Since they came to the door first and I had determined they didn't seem to be an imminent threat, the situation was a little different. Even when I opened the door to speak to them, I kept most of my body behind the door - so that I could have slammed it shut (or against them) if they had tried to force their way in. Once I had my pistol handy, I would have held them at gunpoint and called the police instead of an ambulance. If they had tried to overpower me, they would have been shot - although I probably would have only shot to wound rather than kill (and yes, I am a good enough shot and confident enough to do that.

The potential intruder that came to my mom and dad's house was an entirely different manner. As soon as he reached back into his truck for his rifle and turned towards the house - he was an "imminent threat". Of course, had he actually tried to come into the house, he would have never even made it to the front porch. My dad was already in the living room with HIS gun watching him. Even though I didn't have a gun in my room at that time, I knew without any doubt that - if I did have a gun and the intruder did come towards the house - I would have shot to kill without hesitation.

So, actually, I probably would NOT have shot the two kids that came to my house. I knew there was nobody else trying to sneak into the back and it was just the two in the front. However, the "fight" they got into happened when they DID break into one of the trailers across the street, and the owner met them with a baseball bat! Since they were out to break into a dwelling, it was their good fortune that they went into that trailer first rather than trying my house first.

[The Hierophant]

Ok, thanks for clarifying that Cerek.

Although, I find what you say here quite interesting:

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: However, the "fight" they got into happened when they DID break into one of the trailers across the street, and the owner met them with a baseball bat! Since they were out to break into a dwelling, it was their good fortune that they went into that trailer first rather than trying my house first.

If the owner in question could non-fatally fend off the intruders with a baseball bat, is a firearm really necessary for the defense of your home? Granted, if the intruders are themselves armed with guns it may make defense a little trickier. But now we are merely delving into hypothetical 'what if' situations, the proliferation of which, in my eyes, is a primary motivator behind American gun culture.

[ 07-14-2004, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: If the owner in question could non-fatally fend off the intruders with a baseball bat, is a firearm really necessary for the defense of your home? Granted, if the intruders are themselves armed with guns it may make defense a little trickier. But now we are merely delving into hypothetical 'what if' situations, the proliferation of which, in my eyes, is a primary motivator behind American gun culture.

That's a good point, Heirophant. I admit that when it comes to "home defense", MY first thought (and I'm sure the first thought of many Americans) is to buy a gun. Timber is following the procedures necessary to buy a shotgun because he is moving to a townhouse with less security than the building he is currently in. A shotgun is the ultimeate home defense weapon, but I favor handguns because a shotgun doesn't give you much option to just wound the intruder. Of course, I'm fortunate to live in an area where the purchase of ANY type of gun is fairly easy and there are no restrictions on ownership. In NC (at least in the rural areas), NO PERMIT is required to own a gun. You only need a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Technically, I could walk down Main Street with a gun strapped to my belt and I'm not breaking any laws. The only reason the police would have to stop me or remove the weapon is if another citizen felt "threatened" by my carrying a gun (which means I probably couldn't actually go into any stores in town - I would have to stay outside as long as I wore the gun. That's the beauty of living in the South. You drive a pick-up truck with a gun rack in the back window and have a .12 guage pump shotgun and a 30.06 hanging there and nobody will say anything to you. You can also drive around town with a handgun laying on the seat beside you in open view (in fact, it is only illegal if I put the gun under the seat - because then it is a concealed weapon).

Getting back to home defense, though, a gun is only a good defense if you (a) are proficient with it and (b) are willing to actually use it if necessary. Gun control supporters cite data that says many homeowners are actually injured by their own gun because they weren't really willing to use it - they hoped that just showing the gun would scare the intruder away. Unfortunately, if you pull a gun and don't use it, the intruder may take the gun away from you and use it on you. Police reports also back up this data to a certain degree.

After the incident at mom and dad's house, I know for a certainty that I would shoot an intruder if need be. But you are correct that other - less drastic - measures are sometimes just as effective. That is why I finally decided to unload my guns. The chance of my boys getting hold of them is far greater than an intruder breaking in - and if someone does break in, I can either grab a knife out of the kitchen or just charge them and tackle them man-to-man. I'm not real big or strong, but when it comes to defense of my family, I think I could summon enough adrenaline to either subdue or scare off the intruder.

One last comment about my views regarding guns as home defense. I don't doubt at least some members are wondering if my willingness to kill an intruder conflicts with my religious beliefs (which I use to loudly proclaim back in the day when such topics were allowed). The answer is "YES", killing an intruder DOES go against my religious beliefs. It IS a sin and one that I would have to answer for when I face my own Judgement. However, I still would kill an intruder if they were a threat to my family - but I would also have to face the consequences of that action (both here on Earth and in the Afterlife).

[Link]

I'm glad to hear that you value the life of your loved ones more than your religion, Cerek. I know some religious lunatics who place God above anyone else, hence losing sight of things more dear to them then they know... until it is too late.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: If the owner in question could non-fatally fend off the intruders with a baseball bat, is a firearm really necessary for the defense of your home? Granted, if the intruders are themselves armed with guns it may make defense a little trickier. But now we are merely delving into hypothetical 'what if' situations, the proliferation of which, in my eyes, is a primary motivator behind American gun culture.

Hold on a second, bub. A good deal of home invasions do involve guns. Guns are very restricted in Chicago, and handguns are outright illegal. In fact, if you are driving through this city from one place to another and a cop stops you and you tell him (as most good gun owners do) that you have a gun, it will get confiscated & destroyed (C&D) and you will get arrested. It's a pretty draconian setup.

Nevertheless, handguns appear in robberies and other cases all the time. So, with the very real threat that your friendly neighborhood home invader may have a gun, do you really expect us to just buy some Louisville Sluggers and call it a happy day? I sleep within easy reach of two to four swords at all times, and the fact that that is my only home defense makes me feel *naked*. If the home invader is not armed, you just don't shoot him (unless he makes you). The hope is that the presence of the gun will let an unarmed home invader know it's time to back down, sit down, and patiently await the arrival of the authorities.

Of course, you never brandish any weapon unless you are willing to use it if need be.

All of this is discussing the reasonable ownership of a gun and what should be done. Me, of course, well... if I caught a home intruder, I'd just shoot him. In my house in the night uninvited = bang. Just doing my part to help the overpopulation problem. [img]graemlins/kidding.gif[/img]

Look, if some item of protection is available, and may be necessary to combat the threats of this world (e.g. home invader with a gun), isn't it responsible to make sure you have that item of protection? Do you buy homeowners' insurance? Life insurance? Can't you see that owning a gun is like a form of insurance -- you buy it hoping it will never be needed.

[ 07-14-2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]