Thoughtful explorations of BfC

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Welcome to the party Cerek! Now go see Farenheit 9/11.

I may watch it when it comes out on DVD/VHS. I won't be going to the theater to see it. If I go to the theater, it's going to be for a movie like Spiderman 2 or Alien vs Predator.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I may watch it when it comes out on DVD/VHS. I won't be going to the theater to see it. If I go to the theater, it's going to be for a movie like Spiderman 2 or Alien vs Predator.

Let's not forget about Alexander now.
Mmmmmm, more Oliver Stone goodness....

[Timber Loftis]

Good on ya, Cerek. I watched, and liked, BfC. I was disappointed to note the inaccuracies and misrepresentations, which you rightly note Hardy does a fine job of parsing out. My view is similar to Gene Siskel's: I do not like that Moore's dishonesty detracts from valid points he makes -- there really is something about the American character that bears discussion here. That said, it does not necessarily extend to outlawing firearms.

I've been the neighbor to victims of home invasions, and firearms can be a great deterrent. That particular individual, a doctor, would have been... well, robbed plus who knows what, if he had not fired shots at the intruders. He missed, hitting the wall. Afterwards, and upon the advice of the police, he replaced his .38 with a .357 which could actually have shot through the walls and hit the intruders.

A BfC topic cannot help but venture into gun control. On that issue, I note that I am in the process of buying a townhome in Chicago, and that by moving from the 22nd floor (with doorman) to the 2nd floor (no doorman) I am concerned with home invasions. Handguns are sadly illegal in Chicago, so I will be procuring a shotgun for home defense. About 4 types of paperwork is required, so I must get those in order.

Anywho, back to Moore. He does best when he just points the microphone and lets people hang themselves. When he gets into narration, his bias spews forth, and he gets tripped up. He has an undeniable bias on most issues, though I suspect it's more prevalent in F9/11 than in BfC. Note that he sat the fence on some questions in BfC -- which is fine because even Plato recognized that while he may not have the answers, raising the question is the first step.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Ignoring the accusation of racial bias, however, I think Moore DID have a good point about exactly what type of news our networks show as opposed to other countries. The fact that the news does tend to generate an atmosphere of fear is a valid point and one I hadn't really thought about before.

Moore also raises the issue of "fear-Mongering" in F 9/11, though his main target is the current administration and their rollercoaster color-coded alerts, ect. rather than the media. I personally think that we will see the use of fear to manipulate alot in the current election cycle, from both camps.

Anyway....
I personally believe that fear is the single root cause of violence. Predatory humans use it to their advantage to prey on the weak-using panic and despair to take what they want. Fear inspires folks to arm themselves and can inspire a large amount of a nation's population to support offensive violent actions on another nation. Fear also drives agressive behavior in other ways. For example insecurity fueled the whole cold war- created mutual suspicion and distrust. Both sides thought the other wanted world domination and the total destruiction of the other, when in fact both sides largely wanted to defend themsleves from the real and imagined threat posed by each other. Insecurity also drives the behavior I described earlier- fear of seeming weak or foolish creates an aggressive backlash. Fear of what is different and of the unknown drives racism and xenophobia. Fear of authority keeps oppressed people down and afraid to anything about it- and authorities use this to their advantage.

I could go on and on...

Now ironically enough I do not think that fear is a "bad" thing at all. I see it as a teacher on the road of life. It is one of our strongest- if not the strongest instinct and learning to control it is a challenging and rewarding path in life to take and I think makes a huge difference in the quality of expirience when the time comes to face the greatest fear in the realm of the unknown- death.

[Chewbacca]

Oh, and kudos to you Cerek for taking precautions with the guns for the kids sake. My brother keeps a clip in his nightstand and the unloaded gun in an oversized coat pocket in the closet even though the chances our 6 year old nephew would be unsupervised in his room is quite low. He can still get armed rather quickly if the dogs start going ape-crazy or he hears the door getting kicked-in and, ironically, Mom sleeps safer knowing that there is not a loaded handgun in the house. He locks the nightstand and the reinforced closet door ( which also houses his hunting guns) when he is not home.

One a note related to gun accidents-

One thing Moore could have really hard looked at rather than taking pot-shots at Charleton Heston and Dick Clark is the technological advances gun makers can and do take advantage of to decrease the number of accidental shootings. Highlighting some of the shortcomings and successes concerning this angle of the issue would have been time well spent IMHO.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: My view is similar to Gene Siskel's: I do not like that Moore's dishonesty detracts from valid points he makes -- there really is something about the American character that bears discussion here.

Siskel has been dead for years, you must mean Ebert.

Nicely done to Cerek for actually watching the show instead of posting on from a point of ignorance.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Oh, and kudos to you Cerek for taking precautions with the guns for the kids sake. My brother keeps a clip in his nightstand and the unloaded gun in an oversized coat pocket in the closet even though the chances our 6 year old nephew would be unsupervised in his room is quite low. He can still get armed rather quickly if the dogs start going ape-crazy or he hears the door getting kicked-in and, ironically, Mom sleeps safer knowing that there is not a loaded handgun in the house. He locks the nightstand and the reinforced closet door ( which also houses his hunting guns) when he is not home.

The incident with the potential armed intruder (he drove down our driveway and got out of his vehicle with a rifle - but decided to run into the woods instead of towards the house) occurred almost 20 years ago. Since then, there really haven't been any "close calls". I live across the street from a trailer park now, but most of the residents there keep to themselves. The only "incident" I've had at the house occurred when two black kids came knocking on my door at midnight one night. Fortunately, I was still up playing on the PC or it would have really scared me for somebody to knock on the door that late. Their story was that one of them had been hurt in a fight with some people across the street and they wanted to come in and use the phone. BUZZZZZZ!! Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. I DID call an ambulance for them and told them to stay on my front porch until the EMS guys arrived. In the meantime, I turned out what few lights were on in the house (so they couldn't see where I was standing) and got my gun out of the closet. I checked my back door to make sure the guys in front weren't acting as "decoys". That is the only time I've ever had to actually get my gun for a potential intruder.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: One a note related to gun accidents- One thing Moore could have really hard looked at rather than taking pot-shots at Charleton Heston and Dick Clark is the technological advances gun makers can and do take advantage of to decrease the number of accidental shootings. Highlighting some of the shortcomings and successes concerning this angle of the issue would have been time well spent IMHO.

That is a good point that Moore didn't explore. But I don't know how much they would actually be used. My college roommate had one of the cases that you have to stick your fingers into individual slots and push the buttons in a precise sequence to unlock it and get the gun. One night there was a HUGE storm in his area and lightning struck so close to his house that it literally shook the whole house. He woke from a dead sleep and thought somebody was trying to break in. He said that - when he tried to get his gun out of that case - it was almost impossible (since he still wasn't fully awake, but the adrenaline was flowing so strong). After that, he just kept the gun on the table (he doesn't have any kids to worry about).

I know that I also wouldn't use any "gun safety" devices. It's just as easy to simply unload the gun and keep the clip in a location with easy access (for me).

One point I really liked from BfC was the joke Chris Rock was making about needing "bullet control" instead of "gun control". He suggested that bullets should cost $5,000 each. If bullets cost $5,000 each, you won't have any "drive-by shootings" and there won't be any "innocent bystanders". If you pay $5,000 for each bullet, you're gonna make damn sure you hit what you're aiming at. It was done in jest, but he does have a good point. Our government is currently trying to force smokers to give up their habit by simply making cigarettes too freakin expensive to afford. If the same was done with ammunition, there WOULD be far fewer shooting incidents than we have now.

And I'm still just flabbergasted that the clerk at K-Mart agreed to sell her entire inventory of ammo to the kid that Moore took to K-Mart HQ. Of course, since the cameras were there and Moore probably went in to explain what they were doing - that might explain why she didn't really ask any questions. I would honostly hope that NO clerk would just sell their entire inventory of ammo to a single individual for ANY reason - I don't care if the person DOES have the money and doesn't raise any flags with a background check. I doubt Eric Harris and Dylan (the Columbine shooters) would have raised any warning flags either. But if somebody comes in and wants to buy several hundred rounds of various ammo's - that definitely should shoot up a red flag.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: The only "incident" I've had at the house occurred when two black kids came knocking on my door at midnight one night. Fortunately, I was still up playing on the PC or it would have really scared me for somebody to knock on the door that late. Their story was that one of them had been hurt in a fight with some people across the street and they wanted to come in and use the phone. BUZZZZZZ!! Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. I DID call an ambulance for them and told them to stay on my front porch until the EMS guys arrived. In the meantime, I turned out what few lights were on in the house (so they couldn't see where I was standing) and got my gun out of the closet. I checked my back door to make sure the guys in front weren't acting as "decoys". That is the only time I've ever had to actually get my gun for a potential intruder.

Incidentally, if you did find one of those boys inside your house that night uninvited, would you have shot him?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Siskel has been dead for years, you must mean Ebert. Nicely done to Cerek for actually watching the show instead of posting on from a point of ignorance.

Yeah, sorry about that. [img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: The only "incident" I've had at the house occurred when two black kids came knocking on my door at midnight one night. Fortunately, I was still up playing on the PC or it would have really scared me for somebody to knock on the door that late. Their story was that one of them had been hurt in a fight with some people across the street and they wanted to come in and use the phone. BUZZZZZZ!! Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. I DID call an ambulance for them and told them to stay on my front porch until the EMS guys arrived. In the meantime, I turned out what few lights were on in the house (so they couldn't see where I was standing) and got my gun out of the closet. I checked my back door to make sure the guys in front weren't acting as "decoys". That is the only time I've ever had to actually get my gun for a potential intruder.

Incidentally, if you did find one of those boys inside your house that night uninvited, would you have shot him? [/QUOTE]Yes.