Downloading: Justice (15%)

[promethius9594]

heh, shamrock, the shoddy job the US did in afghanistan? how about the job they are still doing? shoddy? not at all... standard of living is nearly DOUBLE on average of the prewar level. people are drinking clean water, they have access to clothes and affordable, clean food. they have electricity. why dont you hear about afghanistan in the news these days? because everything is going okay there, and "going okay" doesnt sell a newspaper. there isnt a shoddy job in that kneck of the woods.

[shamrock_uk]

Ah yes, but it's shoddy in terms of the coverage. Troops are only in the capital, whilst the rest of the country has just been left to degenerate into tribal violence much the same as it ever was.

[ 05-22-2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by johnny: Try quotes 9:73, 47:4, 5:33-34, 17:16-17, 8:37, 21:11, and 8:12, and tell me what you think.

And while you're at it, grab a Bible and look up the following verses:

Exodus 21:2-6; Leviticus 25:44-46, about God condoning slavery
Exodus 21:7, about selling your daughter into slavery
Exodus 22:18, about killing witches
Exodus 22:20, about killing heretics
Exodus 35:2, about killing anyone who doesn't rest on the seventh day
Deuteronomy 21:21, about stoning disobedient children to death
Deuteronomy 22:28-29, about raped women being forced to marry their rapist
Leviticus 20:9, about killing those who curse their parents
Leviticus 20:10, about killing adulterers
Leviticus 27:28-29, Judges 11:29-40, 2 Samuel 21:1-19, about sanctioning and demanding human sacrifices
Corinthians 11:14, about it being a shame for a man to have long hair (woops, isn't Jesus often portrayed as such? )
And there are more where those came from (in fact, the one about killing "men lying with other men as they would do with a woman" fits nicely in the above list), there are several sites trying to list as many of these gems as possible (the sources for the above quotes were Penn & Teller's recent episode about the "Bullshit" found in the Bible and this site). Wake up and smell the coffee, I'd say.

My point? It's easy to criticise the holy book of another religion, just don't forget to check the one that's closer to home just the same. And I reckon it's quite clear it's not the book per se that's to blame (different times, different morals, different standards), it's how you interpret it in a modern day perspective and which parts you decide to follow and which ones you don't. Calling the Koran barbaric in some of its sections may very well be correct, but the Bible (most notably the Old Testament) is hardly any different.

And if the above in any way violates the "indefinite moratorium on religious debates", I wonder why it's okay on this forum to heavily criticise muslim morals and ethics, but once we turn to Christianity, it's suddenly "not done". Is it for the sole reason that there simply aren't any muslims around on Ironworks to defend themselves, so they can't cause the same useless circular discussions that occur when atheists and Christians clash?

And for the record, I refuse to call myself an atheist - for the simple reason that it would imply that believing in a God is somehow the standard and that an actual description is needed for those who couldn't care less about religion.

[ 05-23-2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: Well, looking at the shoddy job the US did in Afghanistan in terms of restoring order, I don't see why removing the US would be necessary for them to carry on...

The least educated comment I've read all week. I get weekly updates from people who are rebuilding Afghanistan from the senior levels, and I just gotta tell you you are uninformed as hell.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: The least educated comment I've read all week. I get weekly updates from people who are rebuilding Afghanistan from the senior levels, and I just gotta tell you you are uninformed as hell.

I'm sorry to disappoint, I suppose it was a bit glib and should have been supported by some sources. And your people rebuilding Afghanistan at the senior levels are in the international area ie the capital. In my post further down, i clarified my shoddy point as referring to the coverage.

See here

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040412fa_fact for criticism by Bushs former national Security Council terrorism adviser

Also here

http://www.progressivedailynews.com/...st_Failure.htm

here

http://www.globalexchange.org/countr...stan/1441.html

here

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?i...storyid=440185

here

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:n...+failure&hl=en

here

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/W...ent030825.html

Etc etc

Afghanistan has completely fallen by the wayside as a result of Iraq, and as a result American efforts at reconstruction are largely confined to the capital itself, and the rest of the country is just forgotten.

[ 05-23-2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Timber Loftis]

Well, my sources are confined to Kabul. I posted last weeks' update, which included the addition of the first traffic lights in Kabul and continued rebuilding of the health facilities. Rather than rebut your post tonight, I'll wait until I get a new update tomorrow -- if appropriate, I will censor it and post it forthwith.

[Gnarf]

Originally posted by The Whackmiester: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/me...erg/index.html Now, I believe one "Gnarf" owes me an apology for questioning my faith in justice.

Unless you prove Gnarf to be wrong, instead'a bringing one example of what may be justice (hopefully it won't be tho, if you're talking eye-for-an-eye justice), you won't be getting no apology from him.

[ 05-24-2004, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Gnarf ]

[Azred]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Your objections are duly noted and well-placed, Azred. However, the rhetoric remains the same. I guess the reason your point has not been thoroughly addressed is that there is little understanding in our country regarding the text of the Koran/Qu'ran.

Unfortunately, that is too true. If there is one thing in thing country we have in abdundance (aside from large waistlines--but that is for another thread), it is ignorance. That is the single most frustrating facet of my own country.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: And, on that note, maybe encouraging us to simply read the text is a victory for Muslims, not only Muslims worldwide, but also the terrorist factions.

Reading the Koran would not be a victory for the terrorists; instead, it would be a victory for the reader because that person has dared to expand their horizons.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I will note that an interview with OBL's former wife that I saw on that evil idiot box known as the TV confirms that, whatever the rhetoric, OBL considers himself devout, and acts accordingly.

I could consider myself to be a devout Hindu and act accordingly, but that wouldn't necessarily make me a Hindu. Sometimes, even though it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it isn't a duck.

[ 05-25-2004, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Azred ]

[shamrock_uk]

I agree with everything you said, but would like to add that when American's try and get educated about Islam, the amount of trash that's out there about the "Islamic threat" means that a little 'education' can often be even more damaging than ignorance.