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Old 03-24-2004, 11:32 AM   #61
Timber Loftis
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JDH, remind me not to piss you off. All I need is an enemy who wants to screw me over in this life AND the next!

Rokenn, I agree that there was no broad support for agressive action prior to 9/11. Even with the USS Cole, only a select few said we should gather troops and send them abroad to right this wrong. We still considered it an SEP (for those of you who have read Douglas Adams) or Somebody Else's Problem (for those of you who haven't). Prior to 9/11, despite isolated incidents, we still thought terrorism was basically something that only happened in other countries. About the only time an American had terrorism "on their minds" was when travelling abroad really.

Because of that, I don't lay blame on anyone for not predicting 9/11. The best we can say is, like Pearl Harbor (with sudden radio silence by the Japanese), all we knew was that "something might be afoot." That's pretty vague evidence to point the finger at someone and say "the south tower is your fault."
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:45 AM   #62
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rokenn:
JDH,
You seem to be forgeting that everytime Clinton attempted to take agressive miliatary action he was accused of over-reacting and of 'wagging the dog'. Prior to the shock of 9/11 there was NO broad support for aggressive military action against terror organizations overseas.
No Rokenn, I wrote nothing about "wagging the dog", I wrote about the underlaying problems of approaching terrorism as a law enforcement problem vs a military problem. As for the support "Hale" the President is the leader and he should lead NOT follow ie: wait for support. After the problem with the inspectors in Iraq, and President Clinton talked about military action, there was no "wag the dog", nor was there any in the Kosovo military action. Don't confuse what happened during the intern matter with, other matters. President Clinton was not accused of over reacting, but accused of diverting attention, ie: "wagging the dog". In Kosovo it was not over reacting it was: let Europe take the lead, it's their back yard.

As I have shown in an earlier post Mr Clarke was the one that pushed for the missle attack on the factory in the Sudan, based on what seems to be faulty intel. In a Lisa Meyer report of a couple of days ago, she showed a video of what the CIA believed to be OBL in real time (1999 or 2000), we had ships equipted with cruise missles in striking distance, but the shot was not taken.
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Old 03-24-2004, 12:58 PM   #63
Rokenn
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Yes John the President is supposed to lead, but if he has no popular backing for his proposals then they will fall flat and not be implemented. If Clinton had tried to declare war on Afganistan in 2000 he would have been laughed out of office.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:17 PM   #64
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rokenn:
Yes John the President is supposed to lead, but if he has no popular backing for his proposals then they will fall flat and not be implemented. If Clinton had tried to declare war on Afganistan in 2000 he would have been laughed out of office.
IF he had proof I don't know about that. The last nearly 100% leader this country had was Harry S. Truman, I'd give him 98% on the leadership scale. alowing 2% for margin of error.
DDE 75%
JFK 75%
LBJ 60%
RMN 50%
GRF 45%
JC 15%
RR 75%
GHB 35%
WJC 55%
GWB 65%

President Clinton showed leadership when he pushed for the Healthcare against the wishes of the people, The people didn't have a clue as to the costs of the program, they wanted something for free, when they found out about the costs they rejected it. I didn't agree with the health care from the getgo cause I know nothing in life is free, But I acknowledge President Clinton showed leadership in the matter. Same for NAFTA, Welfare reform, Hitting Sodamn Insane when it was uncovered he sponsored a plot to kill Bush (41), and yes the Gov't shut down. In fact I liked the Gov't shut down not for the reasons those on the left liked it, but rather because it showed the American people that we can get along without as much Gov't. You just got to love unintended consquences [img]smile.gif[/img]

I wonder for the 4-5 months the gov't was shut down and the contiuing resultions were passed to keep the gov't funded, at the former levels, how much money was saved?
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67:KIA 9378
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:18 PM   #65
Timber Loftis
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:

In a Lisa Meyer report of a couple of days ago, she showed a video of what the CIA believed to be OBL in real time (1999 or 2000), we had ships equipted with cruise missles in striking distance, but the shot was not taken.
Tenet today said this about that:
___________________________________
March 24, 2004
C.I.A. Chief Defends Efforts Against Al Qaeda Before 9/11
By TERENCE NEILAN

he director of central intelligence, George J. Tenet, was questioned today about his role in fighting terror under the Bush and Clinton administrations as the special commission investigating the attacks of 9/11 began its second day of hearings in Washington.

In early testimony, Mr. Tenet said that even if Osama bin Laden, the leader of Al Qaeda, had been been captured or killed in 2001, he did not think it would have prevented the 9/11 attacks, a point made to the panel on Tuesday by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.

Later, in answer to a question by one of the bipartisan commission's 10 members, Jamie S. Gorelick, Mr. Tenet said that the predominant intelligence reporting had taken "us overseas, but we could not discount the possibility of an attack on the homeland, although the data just didn't exist with any specificity to take you there."

He added, "And this was what was maddening about this."

In questioning that at times appeared to reflected partisan divisions on the panel, Mr. Tenet told James R. Thompson, a Republican former governor of Illinois, that to his knowledge, Mr. Bush had never been given any information by anyone, especially the Central Intelligence Agency, that would have allowed him to predict the 9/11 hijacking attacks.

Tougher questions came from Timothy J. Roemer, a former Congressman from Indiana, one of five Democrats on the panel.

Mr. Roemer cited declassified intelligence reports containing uncorroborated information that Mr. bin Laden had wanted to hijack airplanes to gain the release of militants held by the United States and indicating that bin Laden supporters were planning attacks in the United States with explosives.

"Why weren't we concentrating more on those kinds of possibilities?" Mr. Roemer asked Mr. Tenet. "You were running around saying something spectacular is going to happen. You were worried about this. You were on record from 1998 on saying you were at war with Al Qaeda, but why wasn't the United States government more about those attacks?"

Mr. Tenet in effect sidestepped the question, advising Mr. Roemer to put those questions to a later witness, Richard A. Clarke, a former counterterrorism adviser to Presidents Bush and Clinton.

Mr. Clarke's testimony this afternoon is perhaps the mostly highly anticipated of the day, as he goes before the panel amid a furor sparked by recent criticism of the Bush administration that he has leveled in interviews and a book.

Todays' proceedings of the independent, bipartisan panel, the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, follows a remarkable day of questioning on Tuesday, in which officials like the former secretary of state, Madeleine K. Albright, and Mr. Rumsfeld defended their actions in handling the threat of terrorism against the United States.

At the same time, the commission issued a staff report on Tuesday that said, among other things, that intelligence reports in 2001 had warned of an imminent attack by Al Qaeda, and that Mr. Rumsfeld had not ordered any new preparation against Al Qaeda or the Taliban from the time he took over the Pentagon in early 2001 until the 9/11 attacks.

In his book, published on Monday, Mr. Clarke says the Bush administration not only failed to take Al Qaeda seriously before the attacks, it followed up with "an unnecessary and costly war in Iraq that strengthened the fundamentalist, radical Islamic terrorist movement worldwide."

On Sept. 12, 2001, Mr. Clarke writes, Mr. Bush approached him in the White House Situation Room and three times asked him to "look into" whether Iraq had been involved in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

"And in a very intimidating way, I mean, that we should come back with that answer," Mr. Clarke, who also served under President Bill Clinton, said in a later television interview.

Stung by Mr. Clarke's assertions, the Bush administration quickly staged a counterattack, sending out top officials, including the national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, to the morning television talk shows to rebut Mr. Clarke's charges. Vice President Dick Cheney was interviewed on the syndicated Rush Limbaugh radio program on Monday and noted that there had been several terror attacks during Mr. Clarke's watch in the Clinton administration.

The rebuttal was continued on Tuesday before the panel by Mr. Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin L. Powell.

The charges in Mr. Clarke's book, "Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror," were dismissed by administration officials as politically motivated and the work of a disgruntled former employee.

But today Mr. Clarke will have the opportunity to reaffirm his charges, even though he can expect sharp questioning from the 10-member bipartisan panel.

This morning represented the second opportunity this for Mr. Tenet, who also served under Mr. Clinton, to state his position on what was known before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.

In testimony before a Senate panel on March 9, Mr. Tenet said he did not think the administration had misrepresented facts to justify going to war. At the same time he said that he had privately intervened on several occasions to correct what he regarded as public misstatements on intelligence by Mr. Cheney and others, and that he would do so again.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:47 PM   #66
Sir Taliesin
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In questioning Madeline Albright Former Democratic Senator Bob Kerry told her that just because taking some sort of military action wasn't popular, wasn't a reason not to take it. It was referring to military action not taken against Osama by the Clinton administration.
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Old 03-24-2004, 04:42 PM   #67
skywalker
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Did anyone see Clarke being grilled today before the 9/11 commission?

Clarke began his testimony with an apology to loved ones of those roughly 3,000 people killed in the attacks on airliners, the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. It was awe-inspiring. He is the only one to publicly apologise for the failures.


He was incredible. His book will be bought by me tomorrow.

Mark

[ 03-24-2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: skywalker ]
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Old 03-24-2004, 08:02 PM   #68
John D Harris
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I'm going to give the left and liberals some advice on Mr. Clarke, run from him as fast and as far as you can. This man likes to hear himself talk and be the one that had all the answers. In all his talking about how President Bush and His administration did little or nothing, contradicts earlier statements. I'll give the link, I know it is not from a news source that the left likes, or many form europe and down under . but if you read the link you will find there is no anylsis just facts and word spoken by Mr. Clarke and some reporters. Note there are a couple of reporters named, one is named Andrea. I'll bet it was Andrea Michel(sp?) of CNN, it will be interesting to see if CNN can come up with a video to contridict FOX. Is there any takers that they can? I bet CNN won't say a word, because they know they have zero contridicting evidence. CNN, MSNBC, or any of the "TV News" would air anything they could to embaress FOXNews. FOX News is #1 now and they all hate it. If you want to hear Mr Clarke say these things for yourself watch Hannity & Combs on FOX News tonight. You can hear it from the Horse's mouth...err... maybe that's not the end talking

And Now Heresssss Linkkky: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115085,00.html
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working.
Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864
66:KIA 5008
67:KIA 9378
68:KIA 14594
69:KIA 9414
70:KIA 4221
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72:KIA 300

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Old 03-25-2004, 02:16 AM   #69
Timber Loftis
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In fact I liked the Gov't shut down not for the reasons those on the left liked it, but rather because it showed the American people that we can get along without as much Gov't.
A-men, brother! Of course, at the time, I was more appreciative of our ability to smoke pot when hiking on gov't land due to the number of federal rangers laid off, but nevertheless, A-men!
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:35 AM   #70
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The illusion that is faction between left and right will be the downfall of America.
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