Views on death penalty

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Well, you drive on the wrong damn side of the road, for starters! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

LOL - thank you for proving my point TL. We may drive on the left but 350 million other europeans drive on the right (that's the wrong) side of the road.



It's difficult to pigeon hole us, which is why I'm so intrigued as to what it is that we "all" do! [/QUOTE]I saw this coming before I posted of course. You're welcome, happy to be your shill. *bows*

[Oblivion437]

I don't know, but I have a vague suspicion that things are generally more tolerated on the European subcontinent that I would likely be ill at bearing witness to. To put the difference in a realm readily accessible, I'll use film. A movie like Salo: Or 120 Days of Sodom would NEVER be made in the US...

As for the Northern Irish problem, as of 2004, it's over 1400 years old, not 300. It started when Catholicism proliferated there in the seventh century, creating, along with widespread use of Gaelic as a common language, an innate set of cultural differences between Ireland and their future ruler-by-force, England. The English spoke, well, English, and due to the work of Henry VIII the Anglican Church held sway over religious matters, and disapproved of Irish catholicism, and attempted to stamp it out. There was always a sort of undercurrent of contempt for English authority since being taken over. No one likes their whole country being grabbed from them, after all.

With the potato famine (which brought on the massive Irish Emmigration outward, into the US) and apathetic reaction from the English government (and some being driven so far into starvation to be forced into cannibalism) to the whole situation, that was the spark, but the match would some time to burn. After WW1, with the fallout leaving opportunity open, and new political stirrings causing further agitation, the revolt started. It didn't end until the serious bloodshed had really taken the toll, but the Irish Free State was created with dominion over the Irish people, now free from English rule...almost...

Part of the compromise agreement was the including of the seperate of Northern Ireland, which was heavily populated with Protestants and in general those Irish were not so motivated to rebel, considering themselves English citizens. The Irish Republicans have had factions degenerate into terrorist organizations, with a public front in the Sinn Fein (We Ourselves in Gaelic) party, to some extent or another, not actually coordinating activities, but standing as legitimate and even respectable men to keep certain authorities from finding certain dirty facts. Those facts include ties to drug and gun smuggling rings, ties to Irish organized criminal organizations operating on the continent, in the US (Boston and New York City, mainly) and backing from wealthy Irish-Americans. Their apparent purpose is now long past, the goal that they want can definitely be achieved on the negotiating table, unlike 80 years ago, where blood was a necessary price to pay for anything you wanted from England...

PS. The tabloid thing was a subtle joke...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I don't know, but I have a vague suspicion that things are generally more tolerated on the European subcontinent that I would likely be ill at bearing witness to. To put the difference in a realm readily accessible, I'll use film. A movie like Salo: Or 120 Days of Sodom would NEVER be made in the US...

Europe is not considered a subcontinent. Europe is considered a continent. India is "the subcontinent". Eurasia is a continental landmass. Australia is an Island Continent.

As to "tolerance" there are things tolerated in America many Europeans would find distasteful. Things such as death penalty, rampant gun ownership, high murder rates, violent, gratuitously violent films, over the top penalties for marijuana posession, and a propensity for war.

That's no excuse not to visit a place. It's actually PREJUDICED to judge an entire continent of hugely variant cultures by "120 days of Sodom", or "Salo".

Are you even aware of the type of films made in America in any case?

Unless you'd like America to be judged by Beverly Hills 90210 and "Donahue" (which would NEVER be made anywhere else)

As for the Northern Irish problem, as of 2004, it's over 1400 years old, not 300. It started when Catholicism proliferated there in the seventh century, creating, along with widespread use of Gaelic as a common language, an innate set of cultural differences between Ireland and their future ruler-by-force, England. The English spoke, well, English, and due to the work of Henry VIII the Anglican Church held sway over religious matters, and disapproved of Irish catholicism, and attempted to stamp it out. There was always a sort of undercurrent of contempt for English authority since being taken over. No one likes their whole country being grabbed from them, after all. With the potato famine (which brought on the massive Irish Emmigration outward, into the US) and apathetic reaction from the English government (and some being driven so far into starvation to be forced into cannibalism) to the whole situation, that was the spark, but the match would some time to burn. After WW1, with the fallout leaving opportunity open, and new political stirrings causing further agitation, the revolt started. It didn't end until the serious bloodshed had really taken the toll, but the Irish Free State was created with dominion over the Irish people, now free from English rule...almost... Part of the compromise agreement was the including of the seperate of Northern Ireland, which was heavily populated with Protestants and in general those Irish were not so motivated to rebel, considering themselves English citizens. The Irish Republicans have had factions degenerate into terrorist organizations, with a public front in the Sinn Fein (We Ourselves in Gaelic) party, to some extent or another, not actually coordinating activities, but standing as legitimate and even respectable men to keep certain authorities from finding certain dirty facts. Those facts include ties to drug and gun smuggling rings, ties to Irish organized criminal organizations operating on the continent, in the US (Boston and New York City, mainly) and backing from wealthy Irish-Americans. Their apparent purpose is now long past, the goal that they want can definitely be achieved on the negotiating table, unlike 80 years ago, where blood was a necessary price to pay for anything you wanted from England... .

Wrong.

You may actually need to get on a plane and visit the place.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I don't know, but I have a vague suspicion that things are generally more tolerated on the European subcontinent that I would likely be ill at bearing witness to. To put the difference in a realm readily accessible, I'll use film. A movie like Salo: Or 120 Days of Sodom would NEVER be made in the US... As for the Northern Irish problem, as of 2004, it's over 1400 years old, not 300. It started when Catholicism proliferated there in the seventh century, creating, along with widespread use of Gaelic as a common language, an innate set of cultural differences between Ireland and their future ruler-by-force, England. The English spoke, well, English, and due to the work of Henry VIII the Anglican Church held sway over religious matters, and disapproved of Irish catholicism, and attempted to stamp it out. There was always a sort of undercurrent of contempt for English authority since being taken over. No one likes their whole country being grabbed from them, after all. With the potato famine (which brought on the massive Irish Emmigration outward, into the US) and apathetic reaction from the English government (and some being driven so far into starvation to be forced into cannibalism) to the whole situation, that was the spark, but the match would some time to burn. After WW1, with the fallout leaving opportunity open, and new political stirrings causing further agitation, the revolt started. It didn't end until the serious bloodshed had really taken the toll, but the Irish Free State was created with dominion over the Irish people, now free from English rule...almost... Part of the compromise agreement was the including of the seperate of Northern Ireland, which was heavily populated with Protestants and in general those Irish were not so motivated to rebel, considering themselves English citizens. The Irish Republicans have had factions degenerate into terrorist organizations, with a public front in the Sinn Fein (We Ourselves in Gaelic) party, to some extent or another, not actually coordinating activities, but standing as legitimate and even respectable men to keep certain authorities from finding certain dirty facts. Those facts include ties to drug and gun smuggling rings, ties to Irish organized criminal organizations operating on the continent, in the US (Boston and New York City, mainly) and backing from wealthy Irish-Americans. Their apparent purpose is now long past, the goal that they want can definitely be achieved on the negotiating table, unlike 80 years ago, where blood was a necessary price to pay for anything you wanted from England...

Oblivion, your post is wrong in so many ways I really don't know where to start. Although the internet is an immensely useful tool it can never be used to analyse such a complex problem such as the Irish troubles. You have visited a number of sites and put together a mish-mash of facts, opinions and vague impressions that bear little resemblance to the true situation. It's like looking at the world through a keyhole, or a number of keyholes in this case. You are missing the bigger picture.

[Timber Loftis]

Now I'm intrigued. What is it that 400 million of us do; that you don't approve of?

Well, you abolished the Death Penalty, for one! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Oh, sorry, that was OnTopic. I apologize.

[Oblivion437]

Yorick, I was just showing where the extremes of culture lead to in Europe, using a particular film (a condemned one at that, the Italian censors had a field day with it, if I remember correctly) which represents how FAR such a thing as exploitation cinema goes in Europe...

Now, Donut, I'm someone who likes to know things, not just walk around in the dark, so I'd like you to fill in the gaps and correct the mistakes. I wonder if you can, or if you're just saying 'I don't know where to begin' because you won't...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Yorick, I was just showing where the extremes of culture lead to in Europe, using a particular film (a condemned one at that, the Italian censors had a field day with it, if I remember correctly) which represents how FAR such a thing as exploitation cinema goes in Europe...

Have you heard the sayings straining out a gnat and missing a camel? Or criticising the speck in your brothers eye, and ignoring the log in your own eye?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Now, Donut, I'm someone who likes to know things, not just walk around in the dark, so I'd like you to fill in the gaps and correct the mistakes. I wonder if you can, or if you're just saying 'I don't know where to begin' because you won't...

I don't know where to begin either. You are quite simply so totally wrong, it would take to much time and energy to write a corrective post. Hence my simply and concise reply.

I'll reiterate my assertion that you need to get ut of your country. Media bias is well known. The problems of relying exclusively on secondary sources for historical opinions is also known.

You need to get a feel for the land and the environs. Put yourself in the locals shoes. Absorb their media, talk with them, live with them, share their fears, worries, joys and sucesses, if you want to truly understand myriad issues involving complex nations.

For exampe, you may have an academic understanding of "the tyrrany of distance". You may indeed be able to apply your own experiences and amplify them to achieve a similar sensation. But unless you FEEL what it is like to be on the other side of the world to your cultures origins, centre of events, history and gravitational centre, you will never understand it totally.

There is more to life than what language conveys. Somethings words simply do not cover (music being one example, what a sneeze feels like, being another)

As such, FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE is vital vital vital.

[ 04-16-2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Timber Loftis]

In other words, if you like to travel as much as Yorick does, making it part of your "necessary understanding" of the world helps you justify your numerous trips.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: In other words, if you like to travel as much as Yorick does, making it part of your "necessary understanding" of the world helps you justify your numerous trips.

The travel is but a means to the end, indeed.