The adolescent enemy combatants at Gitmo

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Hot food, plenty of it, indoor plumbing, personal hygene supplies, education, and recreation..

I hardly need to tell you that none of this is more important than freedom.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Skunk: A prison is a prison - no matter how good the conditions are. So we teach them mathematics and then one day release them in Afghanistan...great now they can add up but can't get a job because they have no trade - and end up working as labourers. What good is a highly educated person when the only work around is shepherding sheep (a skill that they don't possess)? Or are they going to be granted US citizenship where those skills will acutally be of use? You have to be pragmatic about these things - they need skills which will be of use to them if they are to return to their home country...

Then exactly what skills should they be taught in order to become productive citizens once they return to Afghanistan?

And who is to blame for shepharding sheep being the only work around?

The fact is they face a very bleak future in Afghanistan regardless of what skills they possess. Which might explain why they joined the Al-Qaeda terrorist movement to begin with.

[Timber Loftis]

Donut, I don't know that freedom is really that important for a 15 year old. I think the world is harmed by the fact that most 15 yr old brats I see around these days could do with a good bit of discipline along with some impingement on their freedom.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Hot food, plenty of it, indoor plumbing, personal hygene supplies, education, and recreation..

I hardly need to tell you that none of this is more important than freedom. [/QUOTE]Is it really, Donut? Is it really better to be living in a run-down shack or perhaps even a cave, with no hope of being more than a common labourer for the rest of your life. Is it really better to get up every morning and go perform tedious manual laborer day in and day out, yet still not earn enough money to provide adequate food and clothing for yourself....let alone your family.

And what is the ultimate goal of such an existence? To hopefully - someday - have enough to provide the very things they are receiving now on a daily basis..and a lot more than they could ever hope to recieve in Afgahanistan through their own efforts.

Young kids don't become terrorists because they are happy and optimistic about their future, Donut. They seek the path of violence offered by terrorism because they see no hope for their future and the acts of terrorism give them a chance to lash out at those they feel are responsible for their lot in life.

I do not agree with them being held without representation from lawyers and being kept separated from their families. However, MagiK has a valid point that the conditions of their imprisonment are FAR better than anything they could hope for in Afghanistan.

And as Chewbacca mentioned, there is always the possibility (slim as it may be) that they may overcome their anger and decide to actually seek to come to the U.S. - where they can face a better potential future and actually use the skills and education they are recieve during their interment.

As for the concept that freedom is better than prison, no matter what conditions the person's freedom brings...our own justice system sees exceptions to this theory every day. I have a friend that works for the Police Department in Charlotte, NC and she has confirmed that they do have a certain group of people that are habitual offenders solely for the purpose of being caught and put in jail. Why? Because they have no job skills and many are homeless. After being out on the streets and having to survive on thier own for awhile, they will deliberately commit a misdemeanor for the sole purpose of being caught and taken back to jail....where they recieve regular meals, access to TV and recreation equipment, and a warm place to sleep at night. Their crimes will only keep them in jail for a few months at the most, then they are returned to the streets where the cycle starts over again.

I know it seems incomprehensible to you and I that the conditions of a prison would be better than having your personal freedom, but the fact is this is a hard cold reality to many people that have no other prospects.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Hot food, plenty of it, indoor plumbing, personal hygene supplies, education, and recreation..

I hardly need to tell you that none of this is more important than freedom. [/QUOTE]Is it really, Donut? [/QUOTE]Yes, yes, yes - a thousand times yes.

Was it better to live under communist rule in Russia, where everyone had a job and food?

Remember the old saying: "I'd rather be dead than red!"?

[ 01-19-2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Chewbacca]

When were these kids charged, tried, and convicted of terrorism? What terrorist acts have they committed or conspired to commit?

Without an answer to either of these quesions how can these teenagers be labeled as "terrorists"?

[ 01-19-2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Hot food, plenty of it, indoor plumbing, personal hygene supplies, education, and recreation..

I hardly need to tell you that none of this is more important than freedom. [/QUOTE]Is it really, Donut? [/QUOTE]Yes, yes, yes - a thousand times yes.

Was it better to live under communist rule in Russia, where everyone had a job and food?

Remember the old saying: "I'd rather be dead than red!"? [/QUOTE]Or how about "Give me liberty or give me death"
--Patrick Henry

Or

"Live free or Die"
-- John Stark

or

"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom; justice; honor; duty; mercy; hope."
--Sir Winston Churchill

or

"Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right."
--Mahatma Gandhi

or

"There can be no friendship when there is no freedom; Friendship loves the free air, and will not be fenced up in straight and narrow enclosures."
--William Penn

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Donut: I hardly need to tell you that none of this is more important than freedom. quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Is it really, Donut?

Yes, yes, yes - a thousand times yes.

Was it better to live under communist rule in Russia, where everyone had a job and food?

Remember the old saying: "I'd rather be dead than red!"? [/QUOTE]Yes, I remember that saying. However, I don't remember it being quoted by 13-15 yr olds. In fact, I don't remember it being said by Russians at all. Rather, it was a rallying cry among Russia's Cold War opponents.

I also don't remember everyone having a job and food under communist rule in Russia. I remember those in power having plenty, but I also remember the common citizens struggling to survive, laboring all day for very little pay, and standing in line for hours just to get their appropriate rations of bread, eggs, and other staple food. It was hardly the Utopian existence your comment suggests, and it took decades of this unequal distribution of wealth in Russia to lead to the overthrow of communism.

Also, the threat of imprisonment under Communist Russia was just a bit more frightening than at Gitmo. Since the gov't could grab anyone at anytime for any reason and kill them without any repurcussions. I realize the detainees at Guantanamo have also been held without any reason being given - and I oppose that. HOWEVER, NONE of the detainees have been subjected to physical torture or the threat of immediate execution for failure to cooperate. They also were not "grabbed for no reason" in the first place. They were CAPTURED during military combat and have received the treatment owed them by that status.

So I'm afraid your comparison of Guatanomo to Communist Russia falls short in several areas.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: When were these kids charged, tried, and convicted of terrorism? What terrorist acts have they committed or conspired to commit? Without an answer to either of these quesions how can these teenagers be labeled as "terrorists"?

You are correct, Chewbacca. They are considered "enemy combatants", but they have NOT been charged or convicted with terrorism.

I assume they were captured along with other Taliban soldiers during the fighting in Afghanistan, so it is reasonable to assume that they may have fired upon American soldiers. But that is an act of war, not terrorism, and I was wrong to classify their actions as such.

I stand corrected.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Or how about "Give me liberty or give me death" --Patrick Henry

Spoken by Patrick Henry when he was given the option to renounce his ideals and pledge his loyalty to England in order to avoid being hanged.

I don't know if the teens at Gitmo would prefer execution to their current conditions of imprisonment, but we could certainly ask them. "Alright boys, what's it going to be - Death....or another game of soccor before your next math lesson?"

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Or "Live free or Die" -- John Stark

Can't recall the exact circumstances of this statement, but the above response applies here as well.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: or "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom; justice; honor; duty; mercy; hope." --Sir Winston Churchill

Freedom - Lost by the teens and other "enemy combatants" upon being captured by American soldiers after they had engaged in open combat with these same soldiers.

Justice - I suppose it depends on your definition of justice. They haven't recieved legal representation, but they also weren't arbitrarily executed upon being captured - and their is still a chance they WILL receive legal counsel, even though the U.S. Constitution does not apply to "enemy combatants".

Honor - I think it can be argued that soldiers on both sides acted with honor...or at least their definition of it.

Duty - Same as honor. While I am not familiar with the particulars of the Taliban's "Code of Honor", I think it can safely be said that all the Taliban soldiers fulfulled their duty to thier cause.

Mercy - Shown by the American soldiers who chose not to shoot their prisoners, even though these same men had been trying to kill them just moments before. And arrangements have been made to allow ALL of the "enemy combatants" at Gitmo to observe their religious practices in as accomodating a setting as possible. As for the teens (which this thread is actually about), they are being tutored in their own language. They are being taught reading, mathematics, and other skills they did not possess. They are kept separate from the older prisoneers in better housing and allowed to play soccor, volleyball, and other recreational activities. I would say a good deal of mercy has been extended to these young men...even though it is quite likely they fired upon American troops.

Hope - How much hope did these teens have in Afghanistan before being captured? Did they face a bright future where they could provide adequate housing, food, and education to their families...or did they face the possibility of being killed in service to the Taliban before ever having a chance to have a family of their own?

Originally posted by Chewbacca: or "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right." --Mahatma Gandhi

If by "freedom to err", Mahatma was suggesting never having to face the consequences of your actions...then I would have to disagree with him. Yes, humans should have "freedom to err", but if you use that "freedom" to break a law, you may still have to go to jail. If you use this "freedom" to fire upon enemy soldiers, you face the possibility of being captured or killed by those same soldiers. In either case, they should not be "free" from the consequences of their chosen actions.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: or "There can be no friendship when there is no freedom; Friendship loves the free air, and will not be fenced up in straight and narrow enclosures." --William Penn

I don't know if friendship is possible between the Taliban and the United States. Since they consider us "The Great Satan" and have hated us for years...but I'll agree that it is an admirable goal.