World opinion on Arafat Assassination/Exile

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by johnny: Well, didn't we ALL create Israel to begin with ? They were not welcome anywhere, so they moved overthere. They weren't welcome there too, except this time they fought back. And now you call THEM fascists ? That's a hoot in a holler.

Well, for all intents and purposes the Israeli government is fascist. You can have a fascist democracy. Fascism just involves society being held together by a highly authoritarian, centralised military hierarchy, which fits Israel to a tee. Not that this is necessarily bad, I think 'fascism' is more a modern day anti-authoritarian hotword than anything else.
There are no saints in this conflict, that's pretty much a given.

[johnny]

Then a "fascist state of Israel" is created by the Arabs themselves. Don't forget that the Israeli's were NOT the agressors here. From day 1 they had to fight off attacks from several Arab nations, sometimes even combined Arab forces. If they hadn't organized their militairy so well, there wouldn't be a single Israeli alive today.

I think the Arabs got a little more than what they had bargained for.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by johnny: Then a "fascist state of Israel" is created by the Arabs themselves. Don't forget that the Israeli's were NOT the agressors here. From day 1 they had to fight off attacks from several Arab nations, sometimes even combined Arab forces. If they hadn't organized their militairy so well, there wouldn't be a single Israeli alive today. I think the Arabs got a little more than what they had bargained for.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on that. I just said that the Israeli government fits the 'fascist' description The State of Israel certainly has fought hard for it's survival, however I think that it threatens to undercut world sympathy (a vital source of it's power) if it continues any further down this aggressive path. Make no mistake, Hamas is making no friends either, but the miltancy balance is far too delicate at this point of time to go swinging around a club right now.
And yes, 'the world' did make this mess, and it is up to 'the world' (logically through the UN) to clean it up. This conflict will be resolved with neither Palestine or Israel being dissolved as indigenous entities, never give up on that. It will just be a long, costly and painful process for all involved. But such are all worthwhile things.

[johnny]

I think if there should ever be someone who sets up boundaries for both the state of Israel and an independant Palestinian state, and both parties agree to terms, the man/woman should be rewarded with the Nobel prize for peace.

Unfortunately i don't think that will ever happen. Both sides claim Jeruzalem as their own. They won't share, that's the big problem here.

Btw, are you a guest nowadays ?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by johnny: I think if there should ever be someone who sets up boundaries for both the state of Israel and an independant Palestinian state, and both parties agree to terms, the man/woman should be rewarded with the Nobel prize for peace. Unfortunately i don't think that will ever happen. Both sides claim Jeruzalem as their own. They won't share, that's the big problem here. Btw, are you a guest nowadays ?

It won't happen now. There are still too many old-generation palestinians and Israelis in positions of power that rememeber old days of open warfare in the 60s. And the current hatemongering and killer-recruitment that is going on on all sides is further wrecking the stabilisation process. The 'heat' is far too intense so to speak. It will take decades, generations. But if each successive generation can make a major breakthrough toward realigning the prejudice toward ownership rights of Jerusalem, then we're on the right track. Real movements, movements that really stand the test of time, always take place gradually over many generations.

And yeah I guess I am a guest. I'll have to uncheck that box...

[ 09-21-2003, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Skunk]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by johnny: Well, didn't we ALL create Israel to begin with ? They were not welcome anywhere, so they moved overthere. They weren't welcome there too, except this time they fought back. And now you call THEM fascists ? That's a hoot in a holler.

Well, for all intents and purposes the Israeli government is fascist. You can have a fascist democracy. Fascism just involves society being held together by a highly authoritarian, centralised military hierarchy, which fits Israel to a tee. Not that this is necessarily bad, I think 'fascism' is more a modern day anti-authoritarian hotword than anything else.
There are no saints in this conflict, that's pretty much a given. [/QUOTE]According the the American Heritage Dictionary, fascism is desribed as:
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism while a dictator is merely:
One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims authoritatively for the direction of others.

I chose the term carefully.

Originally posted by johnny: Then a "fascist state of Israel" is created by the Arabs themselves. Don't forget that the Israeli's were NOT the agressors here. From day 1 they had to fight off attacks from several Arab nations, sometimes even combined Arab forces. If they hadn't organized their militairy so well, there wouldn't be a single Israeli alive today. I think the Arabs got a little more than what they had bargained for.

Historical revisionism is a rather tired tactic. You know as well as I do that the Arabs didn't start this mess, the UN did. As a result, they attacked Israel once and once only in 1948. After that:,
Israel has started two conflicts (launching the first strike!) in 1956 and 1967 (and the refusal to return illegally occupied land in the '67 war led to the next conflict in '73.
Nine years and , Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982....

And you're right - the Arabs did get more than they bargained for - because they never bargained for an extremely belligerent state on their borders which is hell bent on stealing their land and resources. They weren't even allowed to take part in the discussion, never mind bargain - hence the reason for the 1948 war.

Originally posted by johnny: Both sides claim Jeruzalem as their own. They won't share, that's the big problem here.

They were sharing - then Israel suddenly claimed Jerusalem for its own and named it the capital of Israel!

[ 09-21-2003, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[johnny]

That's probably because they got a little sick and tired of being targeted on a daily basis by Arab extremists. They must have thought "hey...if we can't live together, we'll kick them out". Brilliant idea i'd say.

[Spelca]

How about taking away Jerusalem from both of them and make it a new country, where the religious leaders of both of them would be? [img]tongue.gif[/img] Though that wouldn't be possible because none of them would go with that, hehe.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by johnny: That's probably because they got a little sick and tired of being targeted on a daily basis by Arab extremists. They must have thought "hey...if we can't live together, we'll kick them out". Brilliant idea i'd say.

That's exactly what Hitler said about the Jews. First time I've heard that called a 'Brillant idea' in civilised circles.

[ 09-21-2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Black Baron]

Skunk, i oficcialy promote you from "red wizard of thay" to "a kid that does not know what he is talking about". *promotes skunk*.
israel started the 1967 war. ROFL, LOL. Hhahahahahaha, hihighighihih. You do not know anything my friend.
Lets for another time go to a historical excursion, hmmm?
It started with the arabs drawing the forces near our borders. What did you learn at school about ww2? what nothing? i am not surprised. The communists and the left idealists that name every one a fascists, seldom know history.
Are you a communist [img]smile.gif[/img] ?
All the strikes between russia and germany started like that. Massive pilements near the borders. what was all barbarossa start?
So according to you, we had to wait untill they attack us. Great! you are mr strategy. Only i would not let you command a frying pan.
The war in 1973 was not caused by our refusal do go from the territories, but merely by their wish to kill us. We did attacked first also on this war did not we? oh but sorry. we merely provoked them by occuping these territories during DEFENSIVE war. untill now there was not one conflict because of it, in another countries. Kaliningrad, Texas, etc. So, what do you say about arabs, inspired by USSR? They had to fight us. there was no other way than to solve this conflict. War is good way of doing so. But they lost.
Do you know what the reason for 1956 war was? You do not? a pity. it was because we were attacked by the arabs from the gaza strip. And the lebanon war was from the same reason, only the terrorrists went from lebanon.
I wonder what would you do if you were constantly attacked from a terrorist nest. Hve you heard a term -self defence??

About your word-fascist. Where is the oppression against opposition? where? show it to me! bring facts! bring news! I live here for 13 years so i must have missed something, that you in holland do not miss!!! where is terror against the opposition?? if you will not be able to do it, than i was right with the promotion, and you appear in some very strange light.
And about the 1948 war. heavens you are as left as a left can be. you do not know nothing, yet you say that you do.
Give me some proof that they were not allowed to consider it. they could live in peace with us, they got better territory, and they attacked. you know, we also according to you had no right in deciding. but did we attack them in order to have it all? NO.

We do not have a fascist democrassy here, because it cancel each other.

now let me say this. if you want to discuss israel, bring some facts and proofs, because i study history of israel, ww2, comunism and jewish-arab relations in this region for waaaaaaaay to long to agree with the crap that skunk wrights, without thinking that there may be some who can answer to him.