The trophies of war

Skunk · 08-03-2003, 09:19 AM

During WWII the museums of occupied countries 'loaned' cultural and art objects to Nazi Germany. 60 years later, many of these 'loaned items' have yet to be recovered by those countries.

Keeping this in mind, the article below shows appalling judgement on behalf of the US administration in Iraq. The Middle East is bound to view this action as bringing home the 'trophies of the Conquest of Iraq'.

Iraqi treasures to tour US
The Baghdad museum is lending some of its greatest treasures to the US, just months after fearing much of it had been looted.
The museum in the Iraqi capital was hit by a wave of looting in the days following the fall of Baghdad.

But after recovering much of what was thought to have been stolen, the Iraq museum is keen to show off its items of cultural importance.

Among the valuables which will form part of a travelling exhibition is the collection of Assyrian jewellery known as the Nimrud artefacts.

The priceless array of 650 bracelets, necklaces, royal tiaras and semi-precious stones is thought to be among the greatest archaeological finds of the 20th Century and dates from the 8th Century BC.

It was discovered in the tombs of Assyrian queens and princesses during excavation near the northern town of Mosul between 1988 and 1992.

It was among the pieces that were thought to have been lost during the looting but was later recovered from the Central Bank where it had been deposited in the 1990s.

Handed back

A Sumerian Warca vase, dating from 3200 BC, will also be allowed out of the country.

The vase, which was discovered in 1940 in the town of Samawa, was one of the artefacts looted from the museum in April

The piece was then found by three men who handed it back to authorities, with the museum paying them "expenses".

"We are working on a travelling exhibition, which will be mounted for the first time in the United States within six to eight months," said Pietro Cordone, an Italian envoy charged with overseeing Iraq's cultural activities.

"Along with these pieces of extraordinary beauty, including bracelets with clasps that still work, the American public will also be shown the Warca vase, a unique piece made of alabaster dating back to 3200 BC which portrays scenes from everyday life."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3115803.stm

I for one certainly find it disturbing that state national treasures are being removed without the official permission of an elected Iraqi government - even if it is a genuine 'loan'. How would the US public react to the 'Declaration of Independence' being taken without their permission to a third country? What would the English public think of the 'Crown Jewels' being removed to Saudia Arabia without its consent? Public sensitivities should be respected...

WillowIX · 08-03-2003, 04:58 PM

Hmm I'm not sure if museums can loan eachother items without the interference with the government. It could definitely be a possibility. But if I didn't completely misread your article it is describing an exhibition, not war trophies. I know several valuable treasuries were taken as bounty in earlier wars (talking about 18th century). I know I read something about several very valuable items being returned from Sweden, collected in the 18th century, to Denmark and Poland a few years back. But that was not a loan for an exhibition at all. This seems to be just that. After touring the world it will be returned to Iraq. I know I will go see it if it comes up here. OK so only the first sentence was on topic.

John D Harris · 08-03-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skunk:
I for one certainly find it disturbing that state national treasures are being removed without the official permission of an elected Iraqi government - even if it is a genuine 'loan'. How would the US public react to the 'Declaration of Independence' being taken without their permission to a third country? What would the English public think of the 'Crown Jewels' being removed to Saudia Arabia without its consent? Public sensitivities should be respected...

Somebody would have to "Whoop our A**" to get it.

WillowIX · 08-03-2003, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John D Harris:
Somebody would have to "Whoop our A**" to get it.

So are you saying "Hey we can beat everyone, we do as we like!"? Or did you forget a "

" at the end?

Edit: Forgot a "

" at the end!

[ 08-03-2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

Skunk · 08-03-2003, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Hmm I'm not sure if museums can loan eachother items without the interference with the government.

Presuming that you were being sarcastic, bear in mind that museums in mostcountries are *not* independent charitable trusts - but owned and paid for by the state, and the items contained within them belong to the state.
Consequently, the parametres under which the museum operates including the delegation of the authority to loan items belongs firmly in the hands of the artifacts owners - in this case the Iraqi government - which has yet to be elected.

Iraq is like a house of someone who has just died. Nothing should be removed by either relatives or creditors until the estate has been settled and ownership has been established. To do otherwise amounts to theft or looting.

johnny · 08-03-2003, 07:07 PM

Well, i think in this case it's for the better if certain artifacts are abroad untill there's a new regime in Iraq, cause right now they can't protect the musea from pillagers, that's for sure. So i don't think of it as theft, but more in a way of protecting invaluable artifacts, which would either be destroyed or stolen if they remain in Iraq.

True_Moose · 08-03-2003, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny:
Well, i think in this case it's for the better if certain artifacts are abroad untill there's a new regime in Iraq, cause right now they can't protect the musea from pillagers, that's for sure. So i don't think of it as theft, but more in a way of protecting invaluable artifacts, which would either be destroyed or stolen if they remain in Iraq.

I agree johnny, but why take them to the US? This is what has become SOP for the Bush administration: ignore possible (mis)perceptions from the rest of the world. I don't see anything wrong with it personally, and I trust the Americans to do the right thing, but let's take it from an Iraqi-Middle Easterner type of view.

US comes in, removes longstanding government (sure oppressive, but stable)
US puts its own people in charge
US takes artifacts of national importance
US shows them off on tour at home

I don't think anything of it, but there is a very real chance that the move will be misinterpreted by the Iraqis, especially if some people put some spin on it. I personally think it would have been better to give it to either a neutral or an allied Arab country, just so that it doesn't give any chance to appear improper.

antryg · 08-03-2003, 09:35 PM

I agree with you skunk. You have clearly shown me that America is falling into the fallacy of European imperialism. Evil Republican imperialist have obviously helped relocate treasures lost in looting and then appointed an Italian to put together a show of these treasures to be seen by even more evil Americans. Why if those stupid Americans saw these cultural heirlooms they might even appreciate Iraqi heritage and history. We all know how horrible that would be. To make matters worse, the museums which would show these treasures would bring in money to the Bagdad Museum so that it could restore it's buildings. What a nefarious plan!
In case you missed it, sarcasm was intended in the preceding statements.

In the United States almost all museums are privately sponsored or sponsored by local communities and not the national government. Are you sure that the Bagdad Muesuem was a national museum? What if it was titled to Saddam Hussein's family, should we ask Husseins's daughters for permission?

The reality is that I'm saddened by so many posting in this forum who delight in believing the worst not only of the American government but its people as well. We are accused of not understanding other nations or cultures but the accusers seem to be no better informed and also seem to have gotten their understanding of American life and culture from movies and TV, which is no more real than a fairy tale.

John D Harris · 08-03-2003, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WillowIX:

quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
Somebody would have to "Whoop our A**" to get it.

So are you saying "Hey we can beat everyone, we do as we like!"? Or did you forget a " " at the end?

Edit: Forgot a " " at the end! [/QUOTE]No I didn't forget the "

" I was answering the question asked as it was asked, no hidden meaning or agenda. Once they had whooped our A** I imagine we would have other more important things to deal with then worrying about the Decleration of Independence.

[ 08-03-2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

The Hierophant · 08-04-2003, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by antryg:
The reality is that I'm saddened by so many posting in this forum who delight in believing the worst not only of the American government but its people as well. We are accused of not understanding other nations or cultures but the accusers seem to be no better informed and also seem to have gotten their understanding of American life and culture from movies and TV, which is no more real than a fairy tale.

I don't think anyone is believing the worst of the American government in this instance, merely wondering as to whether taking the artifacts on an American tour was the wisest course of action given the alternatives (ie: a tour of a 'neutral' or 'allied arab' country as Truemoose pointed out).

Most of us here at IW would know simply through common sense that there is no malignant intent in taking this exhibition on US tour, however, there would certainly be some in Iraq and other parts of the world that would take this as an opportunity to turn this into an 'imperisalist' issue and further increase animosity toward the US army.

No one's saying it's wrong, just that it's unwise. And I think Skunk's appeal to cultural sensitiviy is well founded here.

John D Harris: but if you wanted to maintain public motivation for resisting what you percieve as an enemy's presence in your land, wouldn't you jump at any opportunity that presents itself to twist their actions into acts of imperialist malevolence?

08-03-2003, 04:58 PM	#2
WillowIX Apophis Join Date: July 10, 2001 Location: By a big blue lake, Canada Age: 51 Posts: 4,628	Hmm I'm not sure if museums can loan eachother items without the interference with the government. It could definitely be a possibility. But if I didn't completely misread your article it is describing an exhibition, not war trophies. I know several valuable treasuries were taken as bounty in earlier wars (talking about 18th century). I know I read something about several very valuable items being returned from Sweden, collected in the 18th century, to Denmark and Poland a few years back. But that was not a loan for an exhibition at all. This seems to be just that. After touring the world it will be returned to Iraq. I know I will go see it if it comes up here. OK so only the first sentence was on topic. __________________ Confuzzled by nature.

08-03-2003, 07:07 PM	#6
johnny 40th Level Warrior Join Date: April 15, 2002 Location: Utrecht The Netherlands Age: 59 Posts: 16,981	Well, i think in this case it's for the better if certain artifacts are abroad untill there's a new regime in Iraq, cause right now they can't protect the musea from pillagers, that's for sure. So i don't think of it as theft, but more in a way of protecting invaluable artifacts, which would either be destroyed or stolen if they remain in Iraq. __________________

08-03-2003, 09:35 PM	#8
antryg Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: August 30, 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx. Age: 22 Posts: 1,765	I agree with you skunk. You have clearly shown me that America is falling into the fallacy of European imperialism. Evil Republican imperialist have obviously helped relocate treasures lost in looting and then appointed an Italian to put together a show of these treasures to be seen by even more evil Americans. Why if those stupid Americans saw these cultural heirlooms they might even appreciate Iraqi heritage and history. We all know how horrible that would be. To make matters worse, the museums which would show these treasures would bring in money to the Bagdad Museum so that it could restore it's buildings. What a nefarious plan! In case you missed it, sarcasm was intended in the preceding statements. In the United States almost all museums are privately sponsored or sponsored by local communities and not the national government. Are you sure that the Bagdad Muesuem was a national museum? What if it was titled to Saddam Hussein's family, should we ask Husseins's daughters for permission? The reality is that I'm saddened by so many posting in this forum who delight in believing the worst not only of the American government but its people as well. We are accused of not understanding other nations or cultures but the accusers seem to be no better informed and also seem to have gotten their understanding of American life and culture from movies and TV, which is no more real than a fairy tale. __________________

08-03-2003, 09:19 AM	#1
Skunk Banned User Join Date: September 3, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 63 Posts: 1,463	During WWII the museums of occupied countries 'loaned' cultural and art objects to Nazi Germany. 60 years later, many of these 'loaned items' have yet to be recovered by those countries. Keeping this in mind, the article below shows appalling judgement on behalf of the US administration in Iraq. The Middle East is bound to view this action as bringing home the 'trophies of the Conquest of Iraq'. Iraqi treasures to tour US The Baghdad museum is lending some of its greatest treasures to the US, just months after fearing much of it had been looted. The museum in the Iraqi capital was hit by a wave of looting in the days following the fall of Baghdad. But after recovering much of what was thought to have been stolen, the Iraq museum is keen to show off its items of cultural importance. Among the valuables which will form part of a travelling exhibition is the collection of Assyrian jewellery known as the Nimrud artefacts. The priceless array of 650 bracelets, necklaces, royal tiaras and semi-precious stones is thought to be among the greatest archaeological finds of the 20th Century and dates from the 8th Century BC. It was discovered in the tombs of Assyrian queens and princesses during excavation near the northern town of Mosul between 1988 and 1992. It was among the pieces that were thought to have been lost during the looting but was later recovered from the Central Bank where it had been deposited in the 1990s. Handed back A Sumerian Warca vase, dating from 3200 BC, will also be allowed out of the country. The vase, which was discovered in 1940 in the town of Samawa, was one of the artefacts looted from the museum in April The piece was then found by three men who handed it back to authorities, with the museum paying them "expenses". "We are working on a travelling exhibition, which will be mounted for the first time in the United States within six to eight months," said Pietro Cordone, an Italian envoy charged with overseeing Iraq's cultural activities. "Along with these pieces of extraordinary beauty, including bracelets with clasps that still work, the American public will also be shown the Warca vase, a unique piece made of alabaster dating back to 3200 BC which portrays scenes from everyday life." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3115803.stm I for one certainly find it disturbing that state national treasures are being removed without the official permission of an elected Iraqi government - even if it is a genuine 'loan'. How would the US public react to the 'Declaration of Independence' being taken without their permission to a third country? What would the English public think of the 'Crown Jewels' being removed to Saudia Arabia without its consent? Public sensitivities should be respected...

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