Religion - Page 9

WOLFGIR · 01-19-2002, 03:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by J'aran:
Wolfgir - nobody here said that black is the color of death. It's just that the classic image of a witch is dressed in black, and a lot of those Wiccan wanna-bes wear black clothes because they think it makes them look "occult", if you understand what I'm trying to say.

Oki, first of all, I meant no disrespect to anything, and I see now that my post was a bit blunt in a "sensitive" thread as religion is.
Nope but I refered to the person that liked black, read above my first post, and that that person didn´t like to wear it. I:E I have no problem with people wearing black and hopefully with more understanding wouldn´t read to much into it. Thus it was not mentioned, but it was hinted to. Heavy metal guys that goes to church likes to wear black as well, as do all webdesigners wear turtlnecks, ironframed glasses.. hehe, oki kidding here but so much are the way we "think" it is, not as it is. I was trying to bluntly add to my understanding point here. No more no less--

quote:
BTW what do you mean by that remark: 'ignorance is bliss they say, but I can't agree'? You mean that Wiccans/Pagans are ignorant?

That comment is a well stated saying, and it was taken out of the following text, usually refering to that the man that has great responsibility envies he who doesn´t have to look after more than himself. My disagreeing is my blunt way of saying that I think knowledge is a powerful tool used with understanding. And also that I rather know the harsh "truth" than go on living in "ignorance" hence it has nothing to do with either wicca or any religion. It has to do with WHO YOU are as a person. You simply read to much to it, and I let you by being blunt in my writing. Suits me right for posting here I guess.

Well I hope I have been able to clear out most of that post.

WOLFGIR · 01-19-2002, 04:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
The Babylonians and Sumerians both had central evil "satan" figures in their beliefs.

Well the Sumerians had actually alot of evil godds, neutral so to say and also alot of good gods. A bit more like the greek mythology. They also put alot of value into the reading of star signs, but saw that as the unknown fearing it. Hence alot of Lovecrafts and other horror writers fascination with the old belief and religions.

Satanism is probably one of the hardest thing to try and root out. The western figure from Satan in print was inspired by the good of luck from old babylonian believes, the goat head was the corner stone from old european fear for loose animals in cities tha spread the plague. Gnosticism is also to "blame" the belief that mankind were tricked by satan to believe that god was satan and vice versa came from gnosticim munks. Satanism as it is in more modern society with Anton De la Vey? (don´t remeber his actual spelling here) have actually denounced his satan bible as LSD provoked printings and the "cool" factor of being hype. But then again some say that is just to make people uncertain and so on..
Satanism is refered to in so many forms it is hard to find one combining factor in most..
Some curiosa.

If someone likes I can try and dig out alot of books about this.. Wrote a work of "satanism" and tried to find the roots of it, it was a big work and not 100% to find it I can tell you. So much combines, twist, influence are misread and so on that tracing things you have more or less to "assume" that some points are the right once to get to the bottom of it.

Neb · 01-20-2002, 06:39 AM

I'm really amazed at how civilized this debate has been! Not because I expected any of you to act otherwise but because it's such a controversial topic! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Garnet and my fellow wiccans: No naked dancing under the full moon? [img]tongue.gif[/img] Shame on you! Drop by some day and I'll teach you how to do it

Drake · 01-20-2002, 08:12 AM

hey I was told that satanism was made just to oppose the total monarchy(sp) in Britan or France(I can't remember wich) can some one clear this up for me?

also I was on this wiccan site and they describe who is wiccan like this "all pagens are wiccans but not all wiccans are pagens" now from what I'm getting that's not the case. so can some one tell me where the lines are that sepperate(sp) paganism with wicca?

Neb · 01-20-2002, 08:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Drake:

also I was on this wiccan site and they describe who is wiccan like this "all pagens are wiccans but not all wiccans are pagens" now from what I'm getting that's not the case. so can some one tell me where the lines are that sepperate(sp) paganism with wicca?

I thought it was the other way around....

fable · 01-20-2002, 02:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Drake:
hey I was told that satanism was made just to oppose the total monarchy(sp) in Britan or France(I can't remember wich) can some one clear this up for me?

I've never heard this explanation, before, and it frankly doesn't make much sense: the modern image of Satan was well-formed and propagated before France had an absolute monarchy--and while England was just a French territory. Again, I recommend The History of Hell by Alice Turner, for an excellent discussion of the Christian Hell, with a lot on its CEO, Satan.

also I was on this wiccan site and they describe who is wiccan like this "all pagens are wiccans but not all wiccans are pagens" now from what I'm getting that's not the case. so can some one tell me where the lines are that sepperate(sp) paganism with wicca?

Well, yes, this is pretty accurate. Pagans are, pretty much by modern definition (Cambridge Dictionary), non-monotheists: the traditional definition (Webster) is "an idolator who worships false gods," which pretty well sums up the way pagans are viewed en masse by the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theological mainstream. Thus, paganism can include a lot of different religions, and not just witches.

Witches or Wiccans are a subset of paganism. We have a very real bond with nature, though it doesn't necessarily (as Garnett pointed out) mean we worship nature. Typically, we worship creation in the form of a God and Goddess, and follow a series of more-or-less established ritual forms with minor variations. We gather on the full moons for private worship within our small covens, and have a series of holidays which are in part solar-related.

Wicca *is* a modern syncretic religion, no doubt about that, and all claims of some commercializing witches to fantastical lineages to the contrary. As a group we derive from various learning traditions and groups of traditions, mostly but by no means entirely Celtic, largely formed over the last 40-60 years; and these guidelines hold true for all.

Other non-Wiccan pagan groups generally don't use the ritual forms, or may not maintain the close contact with nature, or the dualistic worship aspect.

So Wiccans or witches are a subset of paganism. Hope that helps. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

Drake · 01-20-2002, 03:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fable:

I've never heard this explanation, before, and it frankly doesn't make much sense: the modern image of Satan was well-formed and propagated before France had an absolute monarchy--and while England was just a French territory. Again, I recommend The History of Hell by Alice Turner, for an excellent discussion of the Christian Hell, with a lot on its CEO, Satan.

[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

I didn't make myself clear. it's not the image of satan I was talking about but the worshipping of satan. see here's how it was explained to me: back when total monarchy was establish and the "chain of command" went like this. god then pope then king. some people didn't like this so when they opposed the ?clergy?(I think was the name used) they opposed god himself thus being on the side of satan. so they where labled "satanists." and from what I was told they were the first labled that.

sorry I was told this a long time ago and my memoery sort of fails me, so that's all I remember.

BTW thanks, you did a good job clearing up my second query.

Fred the Fat · 01-20-2002, 03:49 PM

Well I have read through all the posts so far on this subject. It is a very good discussion though I would like to make a comment and a question.
My comment first. I would have to say that no matter what your religious beliefs, that you should believe that there is one all powerful being because how could we explain the universe otherwise? That is when science meets religion. [img]smile.gif[/img] Even Einsten believed this.
Now to my question.
Why has it become politically correct to make fun of Catholisism? I dont understand this.
I am Catholic and thats fine. I have friends of all religions and backrounds and we have religious discussions sometimes and they have noticed this too.
My one philosophy that I stick to is not to make fun of another's religion because that might be the CORRECTone in the end. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Lugh · 01-20-2002, 04:48 PM

Hi,

First of all its great that we're having such a civilised talk here!I think theres something inherently tolerant within the personalities of role players.Anyone else agree?

I would class myself as a pagan. I am better able to relate to the gods then to anything else in the religion I was brought up in (catholic-which means its ok for me to make fun of it now and again I was even a altar boy!).One of the man reasons paganism appeals to me is the emphasis on personal responsibility for your actions and most of all the ability to think for yourself.

by the way anyone else from Ireland on the board?

Ruaidhrí

Sazerac · 01-20-2002, 05:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fred the Fat:
Well I have read through all the posts so far on this subject. It is a very good discussion though I would like to make a comment and a question.
My comment first. I would have to say that no matter what your religious beliefs, that you should believe that there is one all powerful being because how could we explain the universe otherwise? That is when science meets religion. [img]smile.gif[/img] Even Einsten believed this.
Now to my question.
Why has it become politically correct to make fun of Catholisism? I dont understand this.
I am Catholic and thats fine. I have friends of all religions and backrounds and we have religious discussions sometimes and they have noticed this too.
My one philosophy that I stick to is not to make fun of another's religion because that might be the CORRECTone in the end. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Dear Fred,

Who's making fun of Catholicism? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Have I missed something?

And, IMO, there is NO correct religion...they're all different paths to a common end. Man's error regarding religion is the chauvanistic belief that only his is correct, and all others' aren't. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
-Sazerac

01-19-2002, 03:59 PM	#81
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 51 Posts: 3,450	quote: Originally posted by J'aran: Wolfgir - nobody here said that black is the color of death. It's just that the classic image of a witch is dressed in black, and a lot of those Wiccan wanna-bes wear black clothes because they think it makes them look "occult", if you understand what I'm trying to say. Oki, first of all, I meant no disrespect to anything, and I see now that my post was a bit blunt in a "sensitive" thread as religion is. Nope but I refered to the person that liked black, read above my first post, and that that person didn´t like to wear it. I:E I have no problem with people wearing black and hopefully with more understanding wouldn´t read to much into it. Thus it was not mentioned, but it was hinted to. Heavy metal guys that goes to church likes to wear black as well, as do all webdesigners wear turtlnecks, ironframed glasses.. hehe, oki kidding here but so much are the way we "think" it is, not as it is. I was trying to bluntly add to my understanding point here. No more no less-- quote: BTW what do you mean by that remark: 'ignorance is bliss they say, but I can't agree'? You mean that Wiccans/Pagans are ignorant? That comment is a well stated saying, and it was taken out of the following text, usually refering to that the man that has great responsibility envies he who doesn´t have to look after more than himself. My disagreeing is my blunt way of saying that I think knowledge is a powerful tool used with understanding. And also that I rather know the harsh "truth" than go on living in "ignorance" hence it has nothing to do with either wicca or any religion. It has to do with WHO YOU are as a person. You simply read to much to it, and I let you by being blunt in my writing. Suits me right for posting here I guess. Well I hope I have been able to clear out most of that post. __________________ Don´t eat the yellow snow

01-19-2002, 04:16 PM	#82
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 51 Posts: 3,450	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: The Babylonians and Sumerians both had central evil "satan" figures in their beliefs. Well the Sumerians had actually alot of evil godds, neutral so to say and also alot of good gods. A bit more like the greek mythology. They also put alot of value into the reading of star signs, but saw that as the unknown fearing it. Hence alot of Lovecrafts and other horror writers fascination with the old belief and religions. Satanism is probably one of the hardest thing to try and root out. The western figure from Satan in print was inspired by the good of luck from old babylonian believes, the goat head was the corner stone from old european fear for loose animals in cities tha spread the plague. Gnosticism is also to "blame" the belief that mankind were tricked by satan to believe that god was satan and vice versa came from gnosticim munks. Satanism as it is in more modern society with Anton De la Vey? (don´t remeber his actual spelling here) have actually denounced his satan bible as LSD provoked printings and the "cool" factor of being hype. But then again some say that is just to make people uncertain and so on.. Satanism is refered to in so many forms it is hard to find one combining factor in most.. Some curiosa. If someone likes I can try and dig out alot of books about this.. Wrote a work of "satanism" and tried to find the roots of it, it was a big work and not 100% to find it I can tell you. So much combines, twist, influence are misread and so on that tracing things you have more or less to "assume" that some points are the right once to get to the bottom of it. __________________ Don´t eat the yellow snow

01-20-2002, 08:12 AM	#84
Drake Baaz Draconian Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: ? Age: 41 Posts: 729	hey I was told that satanism was made just to oppose the total monarchy(sp) in Britan or France(I can't remember wich) can some one clear this up for me? also I was on this wiccan site and they describe who is wiccan like this "all pagens are wiccans but not all wiccans are pagens" now from what I'm getting that's not the case. so can some one tell me where the lines are that sepperate(sp) paganism with wicca? __________________ &Neil<br />Winner of both \'Arledrian\'s Weirdest Thread of 2003 Award\'<br />And the \'Most pointless thread Lavindathar Has Ever Seen Award 2002\'

01-20-2002, 08:34 AM	#85
Neb Account deleted by Request Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: . Age: 39 Posts: 8,802	quote: Originally posted by Drake: also I was on this wiccan site and they describe who is wiccan like this "all pagens are wiccans but not all wiccans are pagens" now from what I'm getting that's not the case. so can some one tell me where the lines are that sepperate(sp) paganism with wicca? I thought it was the other way around....

01-20-2002, 02:35 PM	#86
fable Quintesson Join Date: March 17, 2001 Location: Where I am. Posts: 1,089	quote: Originally posted by Drake: hey I was told that satanism was made just to oppose the total monarchy(sp) in Britan or France(I can't remember wich) can some one clear this up for me? I've never heard this explanation, before, and it frankly doesn't make much sense: the modern image of Satan was well-formed and propagated before France had an absolute monarchy--and while England was just a French territory. Again, I recommend The History of Hell by Alice Turner, for an excellent discussion of the Christian Hell, with a lot on its CEO, Satan. also I was on this wiccan site and they describe who is wiccan like this "all pagens are wiccans but not all wiccans are pagens" now from what I'm getting that's not the case. so can some one tell me where the lines are that sepperate(sp) paganism with wicca? Well, yes, this is pretty accurate. Pagans are, pretty much by modern definition (Cambridge Dictionary), non-monotheists: the traditional definition (Webster) is "an idolator who worships false gods," which pretty well sums up the way pagans are viewed en masse by the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theological mainstream. Thus, paganism can include a lot of different religions, and not just witches. Witches or Wiccans are a subset of paganism. We have a very real bond with nature, though it doesn't necessarily (as Garnett pointed out) mean we worship nature. Typically, we worship creation in the form of a God and Goddess, and follow a series of more-or-less established ritual forms with minor variations. We gather on the full moons for private worship within our small covens, and have a series of holidays which are in part solar-related. Wicca is a modern syncretic religion, no doubt about that, and all claims of some commercializing witches to fantastical lineages to the contrary. As a group we derive from various learning traditions and groups of traditions, mostly but by no means entirely Celtic, largely formed over the last 40-60 years; and these guidelines hold true for all. Other non-Wiccan pagan groups generally don't use the ritual forms, or may not maintain the close contact with nature, or the dualistic worship aspect. So Wiccans or witches are a subset of paganism. Hope that helps. [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

01-20-2002, 06:39 AM	#83
Neb Account deleted by Request Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: . Age: 39 Posts: 8,802	I'm really amazed at how civilized this debate has been! Not because I expected any of you to act otherwise but because it's such a controversial topic! [img]smile.gif[/img] Garnet and my fellow wiccans: No naked dancing under the full moon? [img]tongue.gif[/img] Shame on you! Drop by some day and I'll teach you how to do it

01-20-2002, 03:31 PM	#87
Drake Baaz Draconian Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: ? Age: 41 Posts: 729	quote: Originally posted by fable: I've never heard this explanation, before, and it frankly doesn't make much sense: the modern image of Satan was well-formed and propagated before France had an absolute monarchy--and while England was just a French territory. Again, I recommend The History of Hell by Alice Turner, for an excellent discussion of the Christian Hell, with a lot on its CEO, Satan. [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: fable ] I didn't make myself clear. it's not the image of satan I was talking about but the worshipping of satan. see here's how it was explained to me: back when total monarchy was establish and the "chain of command" went like this. god then pope then king. some people didn't like this so when they opposed the ?clergy?(I think was the name used) they opposed god himself thus being on the side of satan. so they where labled "satanists." and from what I was told they were the first labled that. sorry I was told this a long time ago and my memoery sort of fails me, so that's all I remember. BTW thanks, you did a good job clearing up my second query. __________________ &Neil<br />Winner of both \'Arledrian\'s Weirdest Thread of 2003 Award\'<br />And the \'Most pointless thread Lavindathar Has Ever Seen Award 2002\'

01-20-2002, 03:49 PM	#88
Fred the Fat Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 14, 2002 Location: Massachusetts Age: 48 Posts: 12	Well I have read through all the posts so far on this subject. It is a very good discussion though I would like to make a comment and a question. My comment first. I would have to say that no matter what your religious beliefs, that you should believe that there is one all powerful being because how could we explain the universe otherwise? That is when science meets religion. [img]smile.gif[/img] Even Einsten believed this. Now to my question. Why has it become politically correct to make fun of Catholisism? I dont understand this. I am Catholic and thats fine. I have friends of all religions and backrounds and we have religious discussions sometimes and they have noticed this too. My one philosophy that I stick to is not to make fun of another's religion because that might be the CORRECTone in the end. [img]tongue.gif[/img] __________________ I like guns and comic books.

01-20-2002, 04:48 PM	#89
Lugh Welcomed New User Join Date: January 19, 2002 Location: Ireland Posts: 3	Hi, First of all its great that we're having such a civilised talk here!I think theres something inherently tolerant within the personalities of role players.Anyone else agree? I would class myself as a pagan. I am better able to relate to the gods then to anything else in the religion I was brought up in (catholic-which means its ok for me to make fun of it now and again I was even a altar boy!).One of the man reasons paganism appeals to me is the emphasis on personal responsibility for your actions and most of all the ability to think for yourself. by the way anyone else from Ireland on the board? Ruaidhrí

01-20-2002, 05:13 PM	#90
Sazerac Ironworks Moderator Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Monroe, LA Age: 61 Posts: 7,387	quote: Originally posted by Fred the Fat: Well I have read through all the posts so far on this subject. It is a very good discussion though I would like to make a comment and a question. My comment first. I would have to say that no matter what your religious beliefs, that you should believe that there is one all powerful being because how could we explain the universe otherwise? That is when science meets religion. [img]smile.gif[/img] Even Einsten believed this. Now to my question. Why has it become politically correct to make fun of Catholisism? I dont understand this. I am Catholic and thats fine. I have friends of all religions and backrounds and we have religious discussions sometimes and they have noticed this too. My one philosophy that I stick to is not to make fun of another's religion because that might be the CORRECTone in the end. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Dear Fred, Who's making fun of Catholicism? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Have I missed something? And, IMO, there is NO correct religion...they're all different paths to a common end. Man's error regarding religion is the chauvanistic belief that only his is correct, and all others' aren't. [img]smile.gif[/img] Cheers, -Sazerac __________________ "And all my days are trances, and all my nightly dreams, Are where thy grey eye glances, and where thy footstep gleams, In what ethereal dances, by what eternal streams..."

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