What would you do differently?

King Crimson · 06-28-2002, 09:40 PM

Greetings fellow fans of the Baldur's Gate series! As you can obviously see by looking at my Avatar I am naught but a newbie to this boards, so I bid you all greetings and hope I could contribute to this community.

I just finished TOB for the second time today, and I couldn't help but feeling that there were a few things in the series that if changed would've made playing it far more rewarding and enjoyable, I was wondering if people here feel the same and thought we could share our grievences and tell how we would've done some things in the game differently.

SPOILER'S WARNING- I believe that warning about spoilers is kind of moot since everyone on this here board propably finished all three games already, but if someone didn't they should be warned that this post and the following replays (I hope there would be some) would propably contain spoilers.

Here's what I'd change:
First and foremost, I wouldn't end the series with some half-assed expansion. Both BG and SOA are grand games of an epic scale and ending the series with a short quite badly made expansion left me craving for a more suitable ending to this great series. TOB was pretty much Deus Ex Machina in it's plot as there were very few clues in SOA or BG that pointed that there were hundreds of Bhaalspawn in Faerun and considering that information BG's plot suddenly becomes quite foolish (Why would Sarevok focus his efforts on you if there are so many Bhaalspawn lying around?).

Second, Increasing the frequency of NPC interactions would be nice. Not only NPC to NPC interactions but also NPC and random charachters interactions. For instance, when dealing with the shadow-thieves you'd expect Edwin to have a lot more to say about their motives, especially during the Mae'var guildhall quest, you mean to tell me Edwin has nothing to say to his former boss as he comes to kill him?

Third, more NPC variety. Now I'm not completly certain about this one, as the quite limited number of NPCs serves as tool to balance Evil and Good parties and handicap (not enough in my opinion) mixed parties. Most good NPCs are quite weak but they are many and you can go around being as good as you please with them not caring while most Evil NPCs are quite powerful but are problematic if in a party with good NPCs and there's simply not enough of them to fill a party (The most evil party I could achieve was Me, Edwin, Viconia, Korgan and Jan who is actually a chaotic neutral. In TOB I added Sarevok). So although it balances the game, I still fill that a few more NPCs wouldn't hurt the game too much and even 2-4 more NPCs would be nice, there's no need for dozens more like in BG.

Fourth, Why is your charachters reputation nothing but a silly number? I mean sure, everyone seems to know you are a Bhaalspawn and some even know about Irenicus and Sarevok, but why does no one ever talk about Firkraag? Yoshimo said Firkraag was quite famous ,you'd expect people to talk about the hero/mercenary who slew a giant red dragon or about the person who released the slaves in Atkhatla. The way the game currently is you don't feel as though you have much of an impact on the gameworld.

Fifth, this is again, mostly a rant about TOB but not only. Why is nothing in the series unique? in SOA there were only two +5 weapons and one of them was a holy sword and the other was a weapon you had to wander all across the world to get the pieces of (Crom faeyr) that was unique and cool, now suddenly in TOB you find dozens of +5 and +6 weapons just lying around, most of them even without a cool description like even +2 equipment had in SOA and BG, that greatly annoyed me. But it doesn't end with equipment, Kangaxx was so powerful that he couldn't be destroyed, he was cursed for over a millenia and his body was guarded by wizards who turned themselves undead so that no one would restore him. THAT is unique. A demi-lich lying around in a crypt inside watchers keep? That is LAME, I guess that just couldn't restrain themselves from putting another demi-lich, bah.

Also, you should be able to screw things up. If you free Kangaxx into his Demi-lich form and then run away like a coward nothing happens, same with the Demogorgon, I want some consequences. Yeah I know this will never happen as it will require making the game too non-linear, but still, this is a wish-list [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Well, I guess I ranted enough. Your turn.

[EDITED to remove profanities, I apologize]

[ 06-28-2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: King Crimson ]

Willard · 06-28-2002, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by King Crimson:
Also, you should be able to [edit]bleep[edit] things up.

Please do not use such harsh profanities in Ironworks Forum, Crimson. Remember, this is a board for all ages, so keep the curses to a minimum (zero).
Anyway, welcome to the board, King Crimson! [img]graemlins/thewave.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/yippee.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

I agree with you on a lot of things. But one thing that I actually know is that probably Sarevok was so stupid, he carried out a giant plot to create a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate and to become Grand Duke, and also to kill you, but did not consider that you would not be the only one. Look at (spoiler)
.
.
.
.
Imoen, for instance. He didn't kill her. What's up with that? Jan should make a Bhaalspawn Detector. That would be cool, you would know who you were up against. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 07-03-2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Willard ]

Maxamus · 06-29-2002, 03:48 AM

lol

They should amke more Bladurs Gate sagas (not named BG, but like Truth Within or soemthing) about the other Bhallspawns that either lived before Sarevok, or ones that survived.

Glorfindel · 06-29-2002, 04:47 AM

Welcome to IW Crimson [img]graemlins/wavey.gif[/img] ..... I personally think that ToB was a very fitting ending to the saga... though the masses of Bhaalspawns is a bit silly.. I didnt mind that there were quite a few bhaalspawn that you met... but I would have thought it more fitting if most of them were much grander beings... like great warriors or mages... not just a bunch of weak peasants and farmers

Dundee Slaytern · 06-29-2002, 07:00 AM

The reason for so many Bhaalspawns is to emphasis how much Bhaal procreated with the sentient beings of Faerun. He has done it with Orcs, Chinchillas, Humans, Drow, Fire Giants, etc... ...

Not all of them were powerful though, and this is understandable. Take normal birth for example, occasionally there will be babies with defects or special abilities, but mostly they turn out normal.

This would also give credence to why Sarevok tried so hard to hunt you down in BG1. Not only did Sarevok wanted to take revenge on Gorion for 'abandoning' him at the Temple of Bhaal, he wanted Gorion to further turn in his grave by destroying his adopted child. The fact that you turn out to be one of the more potentially powerful Bhaalspawn just gave Sarevok more reason to eliminate you.

robohobodude · 06-30-2002, 12:33 AM

it also annoyed me, how after i finished BG1, in BG2 there were NO assassins or bounty hunters trying to kill you, how is there not someone in the world other than seravok trying to kill you. (plus i do know that sarevok provided the assassins for his twisted plot to restore bhaal but still........... :@

:$ :% :^ :& :*

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Radek · 07-02-2002, 06:24 AM

I have no experience with ToB, therefore, what I would do differently in SoA:
1. Ammo. The best arrows and bullets in SoA are +2. Result: "I cannot hit anything". I daresay that a good weapon in SoA equals a +3 or better weapon. With a +3 weapon, you will see "my weapon does not work" only seldom (unless the target is protected from weapons by some spell) and we all know when you will see it, therefore, the +3 weapons should be your goal. Please understand me well - I don't want the +3 weapons immediately at the beginning of the game. I want them for all my people at a reasonable stage of the game. The archers using long bows have no chance. Priests and other classes which use slings have only one possibility (The Sling of Everard) which is not a part of the standard game. Do anything with it.
2. Paralyzing and domination spells: Every spellmonger in SoA is casting some kind of paralyze (stun, etc.) or domination (fear, chaos, charm, etc.) from the very beginning of the game. What are your resources to counter it?
a) The Arbane's Sword - if you have somebody which can use short swords effectively.
b) The Ring of Freedom from Asylum.
c) The free action spell - which is ridiculously short timed.
d) The Chaotic Command spell - good protection but it is a level 5 spell, therefore, you will have enough of these spells at a late stage of the game.
e) A few helms that should protect you from domination. According to my experience, the helms do not equal the Chaotic Command spell.
f) The Remove Fear spell - a solution of the "fear" problem.
In the other words, you can counter only the Fear spell. Your resources against the paralyse will be always near to none. Your resources against the domination will be good in the advanced stages of the game. The domination and paralyse spells are deadly, therefore, you should be able to prepare to counter them somehow whenever they threat. Again, understand me well: "be able to counter" does not mean "always counter automatically" - you should have to do something for your preparation.
3. Remove "no save" spells from the game. They degrade the game to a Doom-like stupidity: either you are faster with your pocket nuke launcher or the monster is faster with its two 7-barrel cannons. That's not good. Remove Time Stop, Imprisonment (only a mage can save, other party members have 100% chance to fail) and so on.

Dundee Slaytern · 07-02-2002, 06:41 AM

Just some pointers.

1) Free Action is not a short-duration spell, and actually lasts quite long.

2) Dispel Magic is available early in the game. Prevention is still better than cure, but at least you have an early cure.

3) You forgot to mention Lilarcor +3

4) Imprisonment can be countered by all classes in the game. That is what the Protection from Magic/Undead scrolls are for. Berserkers have their enrage. Clerics have the Shield of Archons.

It is not only the Mage who can counter Imprisonment.

5) Time Stop is extremely powerful, but to get it legitimately, you need ToB. The SoA Xp cap prevents you from attaining it in SoA, short of scrolls. When you proceed to ToB, you will be thankful for Time Stop.

Willard · 07-03-2002, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robohobodude:
it also annoyed me, how after i finished BG1, in BG2 there were NO assassins or bounty hunters trying to kill you, how is there not someone in the world other than seravok trying to kill you. (plus i do know that sarevok provided the assassins for his twisted plot to restore bhaal but still........... :@ :$ :% :^ :& :* [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, there are a few ........
There are not too many though. It kinda makes sense, though, because you are in an entirely different country, who would be trying to kill you? All Irenicus wants is your soul, he doesn't want to kill you. It would get boring fast if every time you step into a tavern in a new area a level 5 bounty hunter from BG1 popped up. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Maxamus · 07-04-2002, 08:22 AM

Actually Willard, he did want you dead, but Bodhi wanted soem fun first.

Thank the Gods for Slayer Demons

06-29-2002, 03:48 AM	#3
Maxamus Manshoon Join Date: June 14, 2002 Location: Someplace Posts: 181	lol They should amke more Bladurs Gate sagas (not named BG, but like Truth Within or soemthing) about the other Bhallspawns that either lived before Sarevok, or ones that survived. __________________ I cry, when angels deserve to di-ii-eee<br /><br />Stupid people to stupid things, smart people outsmart each other

06-30-2002, 12:33 AM	#6
robohobodude The Magister Join Date: January 8, 2002 Location: b.c. Posts: 114	it also annoyed me, how after i finished BG1, in BG2 there were NO assassins or bounty hunters trying to kill you, how is there not someone in the world other than seravok trying to kill you. (plus i do know that sarevok provided the assassins for his twisted plot to restore bhaal but still........... :@ :$ :% :^ :& :* [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ robohobo

07-02-2002, 06:24 AM	#7
Radek Red Dragon Join Date: April 3, 2001 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 1,586	I have no experience with ToB, therefore, what I would do differently in SoA: 1. Ammo. The best arrows and bullets in SoA are +2. Result: "I cannot hit anything". I daresay that a good weapon in SoA equals a +3 or better weapon. With a +3 weapon, you will see "my weapon does not work" only seldom (unless the target is protected from weapons by some spell) and we all know when you will see it, therefore, the +3 weapons should be your goal. Please understand me well - I don't want the +3 weapons immediately at the beginning of the game. I want them for all my people at a reasonable stage of the game. The archers using long bows have no chance. Priests and other classes which use slings have only one possibility (The Sling of Everard) which is not a part of the standard game. Do anything with it. 2. Paralyzing and domination spells: Every spellmonger in SoA is casting some kind of paralyze (stun, etc.) or domination (fear, chaos, charm, etc.) from the very beginning of the game. What are your resources to counter it? a) The Arbane's Sword - if you have somebody which can use short swords effectively. b) The Ring of Freedom from Asylum. c) The free action spell - which is ridiculously short timed. d) The Chaotic Command spell - good protection but it is a level 5 spell, therefore, you will have enough of these spells at a late stage of the game. e) A few helms that should protect you from domination. According to my experience, the helms do not equal the Chaotic Command spell. f) The Remove Fear spell - a solution of the "fear" problem. In the other words, you can counter only the Fear spell. Your resources against the paralyse will be always near to none. Your resources against the domination will be good in the advanced stages of the game. The domination and paralyse spells are deadly, therefore, you should be able to prepare to counter them somehow whenever they threat. Again, understand me well: "be able to counter" does not mean "always counter automatically" - you should have to do something for your preparation. 3. Remove "no save" spells from the game. They degrade the game to a Doom-like stupidity: either you are faster with your pocket nuke launcher or the monster is faster with its two 7-barrel cannons. That's not good. Remove Time Stop, Imprisonment (only a mage can save, other party members have 100% chance to fail) and so on. __________________ My name is Demon\'s Last Day. Yes, the last one.

07-04-2002, 08:22 AM	#10
Maxamus Manshoon Join Date: June 14, 2002 Location: Someplace Posts: 181	Actually Willard, he did want you dead, but Bodhi wanted soem fun first. Thank the Gods for Slayer Demons __________________ I cry, when angels deserve to di-ii-eee<br /><br />Stupid people to stupid things, smart people outsmart each other

06-28-2002, 09:40 PM	#1
King Crimson Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: June 28, 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 19	Greetings fellow fans of the Baldur's Gate series! As you can obviously see by looking at my Avatar I am naught but a newbie to this boards, so I bid you all greetings and hope I could contribute to this community. I just finished TOB for the second time today, and I couldn't help but feeling that there were a few things in the series that if changed would've made playing it far more rewarding and enjoyable, I was wondering if people here feel the same and thought we could share our grievences and tell how we would've done some things in the game differently. SPOILER'S WARNING- I believe that warning about spoilers is kind of moot since everyone on this here board propably finished all three games already, but if someone didn't they should be warned that this post and the following replays (I hope there would be some) would propably contain spoilers. Here's what I'd change: First and foremost, I wouldn't end the series with some half-assed expansion. Both BG and SOA are grand games of an epic scale and ending the series with a short quite badly made expansion left me craving for a more suitable ending to this great series. TOB was pretty much Deus Ex Machina in it's plot as there were very few clues in SOA or BG that pointed that there were hundreds of Bhaalspawn in Faerun and considering that information BG's plot suddenly becomes quite foolish (Why would Sarevok focus his efforts on you if there are so many Bhaalspawn lying around?). Second, Increasing the frequency of NPC interactions would be nice. Not only NPC to NPC interactions but also NPC and random charachters interactions. For instance, when dealing with the shadow-thieves you'd expect Edwin to have a lot more to say about their motives, especially during the Mae'var guildhall quest, you mean to tell me Edwin has nothing to say to his former boss as he comes to kill him? Third, more NPC variety. Now I'm not completly certain about this one, as the quite limited number of NPCs serves as tool to balance Evil and Good parties and handicap (not enough in my opinion) mixed parties. Most good NPCs are quite weak but they are many and you can go around being as good as you please with them not caring while most Evil NPCs are quite powerful but are problematic if in a party with good NPCs and there's simply not enough of them to fill a party (The most evil party I could achieve was Me, Edwin, Viconia, Korgan and Jan who is actually a chaotic neutral. In TOB I added Sarevok). So although it balances the game, I still fill that a few more NPCs wouldn't hurt the game too much and even 2-4 more NPCs would be nice, there's no need for dozens more like in BG. Fourth, Why is your charachters reputation nothing but a silly number? I mean sure, everyone seems to know you are a Bhaalspawn and some even know about Irenicus and Sarevok, but why does no one ever talk about Firkraag? Yoshimo said Firkraag was quite famous ,you'd expect people to talk about the hero/mercenary who slew a giant red dragon or about the person who released the slaves in Atkhatla. The way the game currently is you don't feel as though you have much of an impact on the gameworld. Fifth, this is again, mostly a rant about TOB but not only. Why is nothing in the series unique? in SOA there were only two +5 weapons and one of them was a holy sword and the other was a weapon you had to wander all across the world to get the pieces of (Crom faeyr) that was unique and cool, now suddenly in TOB you find dozens of +5 and +6 weapons just lying around, most of them even without a cool description like even +2 equipment had in SOA and BG, that greatly annoyed me. But it doesn't end with equipment, Kangaxx was so powerful that he couldn't be destroyed, he was cursed for over a millenia and his body was guarded by wizards who turned themselves undead so that no one would restore him. THAT is unique. A demi-lich lying around in a crypt inside watchers keep? That is LAME, I guess that just couldn't restrain themselves from putting another demi-lich, bah. Also, you should be able to screw things up. If you free Kangaxx into his Demi-lich form and then run away like a coward nothing happens, same with the Demogorgon, I want some consequences. Yeah I know this will never happen as it will require making the game too non-linear, but still, this is a wish-list [img]smile.gif[/img] . Well, I guess I ranted enough. Your turn. [EDITED to remove profanities, I apologize] [ 06-28-2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: King Crimson ]

06-29-2002, 04:47 AM	#4
Glorfindel Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Mt. Gambier, Australia Age: 37 Posts: 3,337	Welcome to IW Crimson [img]graemlins/wavey.gif[/img] ..... I personally think that ToB was a very fitting ending to the saga... though the masses of Bhaalspawns is a bit silly.. I didnt mind that there were quite a few bhaalspawn that you met... but I would have thought it more fitting if most of them were much grander beings... like great warriors or mages... not just a bunch of weak peasants and farmers

06-29-2002, 07:00 AM	#5
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	The reason for so many Bhaalspawns is to emphasis how much Bhaal procreated with the sentient beings of Faerun. He has done it with Orcs, Chinchillas, Humans, Drow, Fire Giants, etc... ... Not all of them were powerful though, and this is understandable. Take normal birth for example, occasionally there will be babies with defects or special abilities, but mostly they turn out normal. This would also give credence to why Sarevok tried so hard to hunt you down in BG1. Not only did Sarevok wanted to take revenge on Gorion for 'abandoning' him at the Temple of Bhaal, he wanted Gorion to further turn in his grave by destroying his adopted child. The fact that you turn out to be one of the more potentially powerful Bhaalspawn just gave Sarevok more reason to eliminate you.

07-02-2002, 06:41 AM	#8
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	Just some pointers. 1) Free Action is not a short-duration spell, and actually lasts quite long. 2) Dispel Magic is available early in the game. Prevention is still better than cure, but at least you have an early cure. 3) You forgot to mention Lilarcor +3 4) Imprisonment can be countered by all classes in the game. That is what the Protection from Magic/Undead scrolls are for. Berserkers have their enrage. Clerics have the Shield of Archons. It is not only the Mage who can counter Imprisonment. 5) Time Stop is extremely powerful, but to get it legitimately, you need ToB. The SoA Xp cap prevents you from attaining it in SoA, short of scrolls. When you proceed to ToB, you will be thankful for Time Stop.

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