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Old 06-14-2001, 09:25 PM   #81
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 88
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Hey, Jabidas - looks like you killed this thread, lol! BTW - I agree with you!

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Old 06-14-2001, 09:51 PM   #82
Sir Taliesin
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Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN USA
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gaelic:
To me that clearly states that the people will be allowed to arm themselves. I firmly believe in the maxim, "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." The criminals will get them anyway and I refuse to be left unprotected from them. The last thing a criminal wants is for his "mark" to be found armed. He will usually run. What needs to happen is not to take away one of the rights upon which the country was founded, but rather to punish offenders. To punish them in a HARD manner, such that NOBODY would want to have it happen to them. Tough jails, hard sentences, and yes, the death penalty. That is the only way deterrence will work. I for, one, will never, ever give up my gun.

AMEN BROTHER!!! With you all the way!

BTW the same right that let's magazines like Guns and Ammo and Soldier of Fortune be printed in this country, is also the same one that lets heavy metal music be aired on the radio. It also allows us to have a free press, women the right to vote, for people to practice whatever religion they please, to protest their government and lots of other things. Don't be so quick to say that those publications shouldn't be allowed. The publications or music that you might enjoy may be next. Freedom of speech and religion is the very cornerstone that
the United States was founded on, no matter how hateful or disagreeable it may be.

A lot of you must think the US is a horrible place to live, at least that's how you all sound. I can assure you that is a wonderful place to live. I would not live anywhere else. And we don't live in fear here contrary to what all seem to think. Must of us are pretty care-free. We enjoy our lives and wouldn't change them.



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If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?
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Old 06-14-2001, 10:11 PM   #83
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 88
Posts: 2,859
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

A lot of you must think the US is a horrible place to live, at least that's how you all sound. I can assure you that is a wonderful place to live. I would not live anywhere else. And we don't live in fear here contrary to what all seem to think. Must of us are pretty care-free. We enjoy our lives and wouldn't change them.
I reckon we ALL think our own country is the best!
However, I suspect that Iceland, Greenland, Norway and Denmark (Old Viking strongholds!) are probably the REAL best! But then - I was probably a viking in a past life (if I believed in past lives)! I am very fond of Old Icelandic literature!


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Old 06-14-2001, 10:22 PM   #84
Sir Taliesin
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Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN USA
Age: 62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
I reckon we ALL think our own country is the best!
However, I suspect that Iceland, Greenland, Norway and Denmark (Old Viking strongholds!) are probably the REAL best! But then - I was probably a viking in a past life (if I believed in past lives)! I am very fond of Old Icelandic literature!


I would LOVE to go to Iceland and Norway! Never been there! My dad was stationed in Tule Greenland in the early sixties, while in the Air Force.
He said it wasn't much to write home about. No offense meant to anyone on the board that's from there!

A funny story about him. When he joined the Air force in 1960, they asked him where he would like to be assigned. He know that the 8th Air Force was in
England, and he really wanted to be stationed there. So he volunteered for the 8th Air Force. What he didn't know was that the 8th Air force included Greenland. So guess where he was stationed? You got it Greenland! Spent a year there.



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Old 06-14-2001, 10:26 PM   #85
Fljotsdale
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Yeah, I want to go to Iceland, too - but they have to import so much that everything is very expensive, so I'll have to wait until my children make their fortunes, and send me there to get rid of me, lol!

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Old 06-15-2001, 01:20 AM   #86
Jimbo
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Join Date: March 10, 2001
Location: Brazil, IN USA
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Okay good discussion so far, we have wandered at times but that is okay

I apoligize that I stated the first federal execution (sheesh that was way back in the 1700's), but ment the first federal execution in years (30ish I believe).

Personally, I believe in it. I do put down that we should give due process, but we should carry forth an execution, especially on the criminals that violate societys sacred norms (yes all society's have that).
Most of the anti-death penality seem to be in the camp of not doing it because they might do the wrong person. That falls back under the due process and making sure it is the right one. Then it is the States responsibility to carry out the discipline of the law.

Some things to think about in some of the arguments, the Evangelical Lutherans (the ones that are on scripture and not for changing it because of how people feel), Practicing Jews, Devote Muslims, still believe in it. Catholics are in a wierd paradox-the ammendment from 1972 did not pass, but the practice is to not to enforce it. Kinda wierd that the Pope who controls the doctrine doesn't change it. So by the old books the Catholics are for it, but by modern mouth they are not. Way too much scripture can be qouted for Capital punishment (see Luthers works on Church and State {he was a big proponet of seperate, but answerable church and state}, St. Augustines Two Kingdom's, and we can find it in both New and Old Testemant support, and in the Korran, and in Mosaic Law), these passages show how society is expected to carry out there duty of the sword.

Btw, old testement forbid the family to take vengence, the killing of the murder was by the elders and law-givers, not by the family that was done wrong. The seven cities of refugee were set up to sort out who was right and wrong and to prevent vengence, as it was seen that vengence could lead to chaos.

Maybe those that are afraid of carrying out the death sentance because you can never be sure, are you stiffeled by your lack of courage to act? Is it better to sit and do nothing? Or is it better to act and be wrong. I would rather that I act and be wrong, for it is decision that leads, and indecision that breeds a lack-luster into your spirit. I am not afraid to look evil in the eye, call it what it is, and act on it.

I may be a viewed as a barbarian for wanting to act and wanting justice to be carried out, but I would rather be the barbarian that is Justice, than the weak-spirited enlighted that fails to see what something really is.

Gun battle.

First off, the U.S. is NOT the most heavly armed state. Switizerland and Israel beat us out. Both have lower crime rates than the great states that were shown (Scandinavia, GB, Western Europe in general). Most people don't realize this but every male from 18 to 55 serves in the milita and takes home there service rifel and 7 clips of ammunition. Do you hear about those crazy swiss bombers? Nope. The Israelies don't have a problem with there own people causeing crimes, but are armed due mostly to the threat of Terrorist attacks. They do have more Terrorist attacks then most Western European countries (not sure how they stack up with GB with the activities of the IRA going down hill...well hopefully).

The first Kid to go out and shoot up a school, happened way before the girl you metioned, as there was shooting as far back as the 1800's, especially if you take in the killings that happened against the Indians (not the wars, but the one's where people would shoot up a reservation), and many happened over land disputes. The kids shooting started going in the 50's with the guy who shot up Texas A & M, then it kept getting more and more. If we are going to go pointing fingers at inanimate objects, then the TV and Computer Games, Media, and Movies are all in this mess as much as the gun is.

I think most people who do not like guns are afraid at how equal it brings people. Man is created equal but with diffrences. Those diffrences are made less with the gun. Equality scares people, and being scared is what most people don't want.

People are what make the gun dangerous. People are the blame, and those that can not handle the responsibility should not have one. Why is it that no one is responsibile for anything anymore? That I can not say, as it is what splits society. Some say that no one is in control of what they do. Others say you are your own, and you choose your destiny.

Question to the gun haters, why are you afraid of me owning a gun? Why does that bother you? I don't care and will tolerate your race, creed, relgion, and choice of pursuit of happenies (as long it doesn't violate someone else), and will protect you to make sure you have that right. But you fear me in my home with my weapon of choice. Mind you, I am the responsible one, with it locked up, and the ammo locked up in a diffrent spot, and statistically I am not the one nor are my guns, the one's who cause the crime in your country.

And to gun nuts, why are you afraid of waiting periods, liscencing, and training? I think we need just as much work as we do with cars (for record keeping and use) to keep them in proper use. I do think we should be allowed any type of weapon up to a certain calibre (I want my M2 browning 50 cal machine gun! especially the old anti-air version with quad 50's!! whoot), and some people can't have that if they are not of sound mind or body.

Btw Rikard, what is it with your beef with Bush? I think you really must have a broccli fetish and are still upset at his family not supporting it. That or he drank your beer and bogarted the J's at a party. You sound almost like my elderly Aunt, who thinks any one who isn't a democrate is the devil. I have reason's to dislike Bush, but calling him a murder is pretty far-fetched. It is on the line's of the statement that, "Queen Beatrix is a murder! She is bringing the world into a realm where we let the adult killers live, and the unborn, unfit, and elderly die." I don't believe that, but you see how you are coming across?

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Old 06-15-2001, 04:57 AM   #87
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 88
Posts: 2,859
Quote:
.
Btw, old testement forbid the family to take vengence, the killing of the murder was by the elders and law-givers, not by the family that was done wrong. The seven cities of refugee were set up to sort out who was right and wrong and to prevent vengence, as it was seen that vengence could lead to chaos.

[/B]
Uhuh! Read Leviticus Chapter 39 for the law on Murder, [taking particular note of verses 19-21, 31] and the Avenger of Blood. In Hebrew law, the Avenger of Blood was the nearest male relative, who was under obligation to avenge the spilled blood. Elders of the Cities of Refuge only entered into the equation if the deliberate murderer fled there. And even then, the murderer was handed over to the Avenger of Blood after trial (Deuteronomy 19: 11-13).

I am not advocating this, btw! Just stating it. My original comment was in reply to a point made by someone else - but I DON'T like to see the facts skewed!



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Old 06-15-2001, 05:09 AM   #88
WOLFGIR
Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Sweden
Age: 51
Posts: 3,450
Quote:
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Yeah, I want to go to Iceland, too - but they have to import so much that everything is very expensive, so I'll have to wait until my children make their fortunes, and send me there to get rid of me, lol!

Well Iceland is expansive, but not more expnsive than it is to go to London i tell you!
I visited Iceland last yeasr and man! it is a great country! Very friendly people and beatiful landscape, feels like you have landed in a fairyland/mooncountry!

Everything is so fresh too! Definately go visit there! ;D

mm, also (not to mess this one up) Check out there legal system and there social ideas and such yoo!

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Old 06-15-2001, 11:36 AM   #89
Jimbo
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Join Date: March 10, 2001
Location: Brazil, IN USA
Age: 56
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Curious what version or edition of bible you are using Fljotsdale, as AAT(An American Translation) does not have a chapter 37 of Leviticus. It stops at 27, and 27 deals with, "Buying Back What IS the LORD's". Chapter 19 of Deuteronomy is a pretty good one about the Cities of Refuge, and a comment on the verses 11-14, you are saying because it says, verses 12 "then the elders of his town should send men to get him from there and hand him over to the avenging relative to die." You base that revenge is the motive, but the point is that justice must come and from the relatives, but it is stated it comes first from the Elders, then to the relatives, and if we look at a few other places it may be that there is no relatives or they don't state that relatives should do it. Personel vengence was spoken out against in Leviticus 19 verses 18, "Don't avenge yourself or hold a grude against your fellow Israelites, but love your neighbot liek yourself. I am the LORD." Personel vengence no, vengence for the one's killed and who should do it yes. I can get some more information but I need to get going for class. The duty of vengence or the act to carry out the justice, not the personal vengence is what they were talking about, not that if your family member is killed you should kill him with vengence in your heart. Ezekiel talked about how we are not to be glad for having to do this task sense all killing make the LORD sad, but it is commanded and to be carried out.

Btw, I correct myself, it wasn't 7 cities, it was 3 by Moses, and then expanded to 6.

Seeya and good weekened to all.
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Old 06-15-2001, 01:24 PM   #90
Ramon de Ramon y Ramon
Red Dragon
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Cologne, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Age: 53
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Yep! You, me, and Moiraine - all pretty well in agreement! Not in every detail, NATURALLY!! - but well enough. We seem to have remarkably similar outlooks, yet we are coming from such different convictions. Surprising, ain't it?

Fljotsdale, ma'am, I beg your pardon, but Moiraine's and Moni's posts are about as antagonistic and opposing, with respects to both, the views on the issues and the general attitude towards society they express, as any two posts on any topic I have seen here so far ! Moiraine expressed the prototypical view of a moderately left European liberal, while Moni's post is so much a picture book perfect product of the ideas of American right-wing law-and-order conservatism that I could hardly believe that something as "pure" existed when I read it. If I had to teach a political science class tomorrow I would pick those two threads as demonstration objects !

Moni, as you have probably guessed by now, I rejecct every single view you have presented here on this thread whole-heartedly, but I also want to tell you one thing: I think earning a college degree while at the same time having to make a living and being a single mom, is an achievement you can and should be really proud of and for which I admire you immensely. I personally have not accomplished anything that comes even close in my life yet - and I doubt that I ever will.

Donut - just as Memnoch I admire you greatly for that extremely knowledgeable, educating and insightful post of yours. Thanks !

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So long !

R³ - new, much improved signature under construction !




[This message has been edited by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon (edited 06-15-2001).]
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