Ranger or Paladin? - Page 3

Dundee Slaytern · 01-21-2002, 03:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer128:
I was planning on dual wielding in my next time through. Are you saying sword and shield would be a better choice?

If you are partying, chances are, you have another tank whose AC will be better since he/she will have a shield. In this case, a Dual-Wielding Paladin will have no issue.

Gamewise, SoA is pretty easy even if you have no shield, but come ToB, you will start loving your shield a lot.

[ADD]
In conclusion, if you are partying, go for dual-wield, as you will have back-up party members. If you are soloing, go for the weapon plus shield combo.
[/ADD]

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

SixOfSpades · 01-21-2002, 03:24 AM

Undead Hunter: Better than Cavalier?

Cavalier has +3 THAC0/Damage against Demons, Hunter has +3 against Undead. You're going to be seeing PLENTY of both, so these bonuses are pretty much equal in value.

Tanks are more about DEfense than OFFense--Killing the enemy is all well and good, but it's more important to keep the enemy away from your Thieves & Mages. All the kits do well here: Cavalier is immune to Fear & Poison, Hunter is immune to Hold & Level Drain, & Inquisitor is immune to Hold & Charm. (Take items into account: Many of these immunities are duplicated by items. An Undead Hunter with Lilarcor & the Ring of Gaxx would be immune to Hold, Level Drain, Fear, Poison, AND Charm.) All kits seem equal on this point. The Cavalier only takes 80% damage from Fire and Acid attacks, but to me that just means he Regenerates from those attacks a little bit quicker.

Spellcasting: Every Paladin's backup plan. This is where the Inquisitor gets left out in the cold, as far as I'm concerned; His Dispel Magic & True Sight are okay, but DEFINITELY not worth losing EVERY OTHER damn spell on the scroll. He also cannot Turn Undead or Cure Disease.....no big loss, but the Inquisitor still sucks. The Cavalier gets Remove Fear--not terribly useful, I much prefer Resist Fear, but Remove is decent, I guess. The Undead Hunter cannot Lay on Hands, and since mine is Level 15, that's a difference of 30 hitpoints per day, which is, oh, 25 seconds with the Ring of Gaxx? That's the Hunter's only drawback.

The Cavalier's drawback is huge in proportion: If he wants to use a ranged weapon (and there are some beasties that even Tanks want to keep a distance from--I've found out that 2 Critical Hits from a Mind Flayer can kill most characters), the Cavalier is restriced to Throwing Axes and Throwing Daggers--and while those weapons might have impressive enchantments on them (K'glorath, for instance), they are SLOW. Not even CLOSE to the firing rate of a bow, and when's the last time you saw a Throwing Axe that was as good as an Arrow of Piercing, or Dispelling, or Biting? Sure, your Tank is gonna be meleeing 98% of the time, but I prefer being able to use a bow over being able to Lay On Hands.

Dundee Slaytern · 01-21-2002, 03:54 AM

Undead Hunter:
--------------

Immunity to level drain,

Cavaliers can wear the Amulet of Power which not only confers this ability, but several other abilities as well. This is of course, only allowed if you have the Balderdash Fixpack, or you installed ToB.

quote:
Quote From Balderdash:
Updated Amulet Of Power Fix appears to be problem-free: the previous fix was bringing out the issue with dual-classed kits' restrictions following them into the second class, even when the first class was inactive. Fixes the confirmed usabilities for this item, allowing Rangers and Paladins to use it, as all spellcasters are entitled to use it, and disallowing Monks and Barbarians from it.

Immunity to Hold,

Cavaliers can cast the level 4 Cleric spell, Free Action, or just wear the Ring of Free Action.

Range Weapons,

Not a big issue. If you are using your Paladins as archers, something is seriously screwed up in your party, no offence intended. The throwing axe is really meant for solo Paladins only, party Paladins will just about never engage in ranged combat, if ever.

On the other hand, Undead Hunters will never have the 20% bonus resistance to Fire and Acid that Cavaliers enjoy. Also, Remove Fear acts the same as Resist Fear in BG2( lasts an hour).

-ramm- · 01-21-2002, 04:58 AM

i would personaly be a mage as they can cast spells

Ike YarakZ · 01-21-2002, 07:45 AM

umm the topic was if he wanted to b a Paladin or Ranger... not Paladin or Ranger or Mage...

IMHO i would go for the stalker... and then dual wield wat ever u like... because u already get ++ in two weapons...

Elendil · 01-21-2002, 08:00 AM

Well I have decided to be an elven archer. But I will play also second game with cavalier...

Dreamer128 · 01-21-2002, 09:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
[b]
Cavaliers can wear the Amulet of Power which not only confers this ability, but several other abilities as well. This is of course, only allowed if you have the Balderdash Fixpack, or you installed ToB.

I have TOB installed, with the patch and my Cavelier still can't use the amulet of power!

Legolas · 01-22-2002, 09:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Elendil:
Well I have decided to be an elven archer. But I will play also second game with cavalier...

Good choice [img]smile.gif[/img]
That's exactly what I did (except for the bard I played inbetween the two), and I could bore you to death with my stories about how great the Archer is

But you can see that for yourself now, so I won't bother... this time

SixOfSpades · 01-22-2002, 04:16 PM

Actually, this thread seems to be sprouting a kinda sub-thread as Dundee and I each champion our favorite Paladin kits.....

The Amulet of Power is pretty much wasted on a Paladin anyway; Negative Plane Protection is nice, but the reduced casting speed and Vocalize belong on your main spell-slinger, not your Paladin. Besides, my Undead Hunter's Neck slot is taken up by that amulet that gives +2 to Save vs. Spell, putting ALL of her Saving Throws in the negative range.

Dundee, you also suggested that Cavaliers could mimic the Undead Hunter's immunity to Hold by using the Ring of Free Action. This is true, but do you really want to give up your Ring of Protection+2 for it? Although you're right in that you could just use a Potion or spell.

You're also correct when you say that ranged weapons are "Not a big issue" for a Tank. There WAS a time when my UH was primarily an archer, but that's when my Berserker->Cleric was the Tank. Now that I've seen the error of that path (B->C has a few more hitpoints, but Miss UH has WAY better THACO & Saving Throws), she only whips out her bow on a few rare occasions. But at least she CAN whip out a bow; Cavaliers are stuck with the Axe, and Undead Hunters can learn the Axe too.

So, basically it comes down to (20% resistance to Fire and Acid, plus Lay On Hands) or (permanent Negative Plane Protection, plus no weapon restrictions). I'll go with the no weapon restrictions, and I'll also take another look at the (new?) Resist Fear description.

Magness · 01-22-2002, 11:47 PM

Having just noticed this thread, I seem to be jumping into the middle of this "best paladin kit" sub-thread. Oh well...

I, speaking for the great paladin Magness the Inquisitor, will defend the greatness of the Inquisitor kit.

I, for one, have never found the paladin "Turn Undead" ability to be worth a thing. Paladins are tanks and tanks that are praying are not swinging their mighty swords/axes/etc. Turning undead is the job of a party's cleric.

I've never gotten much value out of any paladin's cleric spells. I'd use the pre-battle or post-battle spells, but once again paladins are tanks and don't have time to be casting spells in the middle of a nasty melee.

On the other hand, I have found the Inquisitor's super Dispel Magic and True Sight to be awesomely useful. My inquisitor's only fire off a DM in important and often desperate situations. For example, against a certain demon that you have to fight in the Underdark, the demon often cast some nasty spell that freezes up most of my party. Not wanting them to be sliced and diced, my Inquisitor will dispel the spell and unfreeze the remainder of the party. The speed and the incredible power of an inquisitor's Dispel Magic is awesome and well worth the trade offs.
The immunities and the True Sight round out this kit nicely.

I've never felt the need for the anti-dragon and demon bonuses given to Cavaliers. I've never had too much trouble taking down dragons.

The level drain immunity of the Undead Hunter is great, given the considerable number of level-draining creatures. If the Undead Hunter kit had some sort of special attack (not the thac0 and damage pluses) like 2x power turn undead or sunray, I'd probably like them better. Having said this, Undead Hunter is my 2nd favorite paladin kit.

In conclusion, Inquisitors are great IMHO because incredible usefulness of their 2 primary special abilities (dispel magic and true sight) to any party.

01-21-2002, 03:06 AM	#21
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: I was planning on dual wielding in my next time through. Are you saying sword and shield would be a better choice? If you are partying, chances are, you have another tank whose AC will be better since he/she will have a shield. In this case, a Dual-Wielding Paladin will have no issue. Gamewise, SoA is pretty easy even if you have no shield, but come ToB, you will start loving your shield a lot. [ADD] In conclusion, if you are partying, go for dual-wield, as you will have back-up party members. If you are soloing, go for the weapon plus shield combo. [/ADD] [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

01-21-2002, 03:24 AM	#22
SixOfSpades Dracolisk Join Date: September 16, 2001 Location: Bellingham, WA, USA Age: 48 Posts: 6,901	Undead Hunter: Better than Cavalier? Cavalier has +3 THAC0/Damage against Demons, Hunter has +3 against Undead. You're going to be seeing PLENTY of both, so these bonuses are pretty much equal in value. Tanks are more about DEfense than OFFense--Killing the enemy is all well and good, but it's more important to keep the enemy away from your Thieves & Mages. All the kits do well here: Cavalier is immune to Fear & Poison, Hunter is immune to Hold & Level Drain, & Inquisitor is immune to Hold & Charm. (Take items into account: Many of these immunities are duplicated by items. An Undead Hunter with Lilarcor & the Ring of Gaxx would be immune to Hold, Level Drain, Fear, Poison, AND Charm.) All kits seem equal on this point. The Cavalier only takes 80% damage from Fire and Acid attacks, but to me that just means he Regenerates from those attacks a little bit quicker. Spellcasting: Every Paladin's backup plan. This is where the Inquisitor gets left out in the cold, as far as I'm concerned; His Dispel Magic & True Sight are okay, but DEFINITELY not worth losing EVERY OTHER damn spell on the scroll. He also cannot Turn Undead or Cure Disease.....no big loss, but the Inquisitor still sucks. The Cavalier gets Remove Fear--not terribly useful, I much prefer Resist Fear, but Remove is decent, I guess. The Undead Hunter cannot Lay on Hands, and since mine is Level 15, that's a difference of 30 hitpoints per day, which is, oh, 25 seconds with the Ring of Gaxx? That's the Hunter's only drawback. The Cavalier's drawback is huge in proportion: If he wants to use a ranged weapon (and there are some beasties that even Tanks want to keep a distance from--I've found out that 2 Critical Hits from a Mind Flayer can kill most characters), the Cavalier is restriced to Throwing Axes and Throwing Daggers--and while those weapons might have impressive enchantments on them (K'glorath, for instance), they are SLOW. Not even CLOSE to the firing rate of a bow, and when's the last time you saw a Throwing Axe that was as good as an Arrow of Piercing, or Dispelling, or Biting? Sure, your Tank is gonna be meleeing 98% of the time, but I prefer being able to use a bow over being able to Lay On Hands. __________________ Volothamp's Comeuppance Everything you ever needed to know about the entire Baldur's Gate series......except spoilers.

01-21-2002, 03:54 AM	#23
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	Undead Hunter: -------------- Immunity to level drain, Cavaliers can wear the Amulet of Power which not only confers this ability, but several other abilities as well. This is of course, only allowed if you have the Balderdash Fixpack, or you installed ToB. quote: Quote From Balderdash: Updated Amulet Of Power Fix appears to be problem-free: the previous fix was bringing out the issue with dual-classed kits' restrictions following them into the second class, even when the first class was inactive. Fixes the confirmed usabilities for this item, allowing Rangers and Paladins to use it, as all spellcasters are entitled to use it, and disallowing Monks and Barbarians from it. Immunity to Hold, Cavaliers can cast the level 4 Cleric spell, Free Action, or just wear the Ring of Free Action. Range Weapons, Not a big issue. If you are using your Paladins as archers, something is seriously screwed up in your party, no offence intended. The throwing axe is really meant for solo Paladins only, party Paladins will just about never engage in ranged combat, if ever. On the other hand, Undead Hunters will never have the 20% bonus resistance to Fire and Acid that Cavaliers enjoy. Also, Remove Fear acts the same as Resist Fear in BG2( lasts an hour). __________________ Click On The Image For BG2 Information Land of the Psycho-moe

01-21-2002, 04:58 AM	#24
-ramm- Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 21, 2002 Location: uk Posts: 8	i would personaly be a mage as they can cast spells __________________ hahahahahaha sam i found it

01-21-2002, 07:45 AM	#25
Ike YarakZ Dungeon Master Join Date: January 10, 2002 Location: Melbourne Posts: 70	umm the topic was if he wanted to b a Paladin or Ranger... not Paladin or Ranger or Mage... IMHO i would go for the stalker... and then dual wield wat ever u like... because u already get ++ in two weapons... __________________ Your bad name is your own doing (C)

01-21-2002, 08:00 AM	#26
Elendil Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 13, 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 28	Well I have decided to be an elven archer. But I will play also second game with cavalier... __________________ Elendil - the lethal elven archer<p>- It is too late to escape if you hear his arrows whistling on air. -

01-21-2002, 09:04 AM	#27
Dreamer128 Dracolisk Join Date: March 21, 2001 Location: Europe Age: 40 Posts: 6,136	quote: Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: [b] Cavaliers can wear the Amulet of Power which not only confers this ability, but several other abilities as well. This is of course, only allowed if you have the Balderdash Fixpack, or you installed ToB. I have TOB installed, with the patch and my Cavelier still can't use the amulet of power!

01-22-2002, 09:24 AM	#28
Legolas Jack Burton Join Date: March 31, 2001 Location: The zephyr lands beneath the brine. Age: 40 Posts: 5,459	quote: Originally posted by Elendil: Well I have decided to be an elven archer. But I will play also second game with cavalier... Good choice [img]smile.gif[/img] That's exactly what I did (except for the bard I played inbetween the two), and I could bore you to death with my stories about how great the Archer is But you can see that for yourself now, so I won't bother... this time

01-22-2002, 04:16 PM	#29
SixOfSpades Dracolisk Join Date: September 16, 2001 Location: Bellingham, WA, USA Age: 48 Posts: 6,901	Actually, this thread seems to be sprouting a kinda sub-thread as Dundee and I each champion our favorite Paladin kits..... The Amulet of Power is pretty much wasted on a Paladin anyway; Negative Plane Protection is nice, but the reduced casting speed and Vocalize belong on your main spell-slinger, not your Paladin. Besides, my Undead Hunter's Neck slot is taken up by that amulet that gives +2 to Save vs. Spell, putting ALL of her Saving Throws in the negative range. Dundee, you also suggested that Cavaliers could mimic the Undead Hunter's immunity to Hold by using the Ring of Free Action. This is true, but do you really want to give up your Ring of Protection+2 for it? Although you're right in that you could just use a Potion or spell. You're also correct when you say that ranged weapons are "Not a big issue" for a Tank. There WAS a time when my UH was primarily an archer, but that's when my Berserker->Cleric was the Tank. Now that I've seen the error of that path (B->C has a few more hitpoints, but Miss UH has WAY better THACO & Saving Throws), she only whips out her bow on a few rare occasions. But at least she CAN whip out a bow; Cavaliers are stuck with the Axe, and Undead Hunters can learn the Axe too. So, basically it comes down to (20% resistance to Fire and Acid, plus Lay On Hands) or (permanent Negative Plane Protection, plus no weapon restrictions). I'll go with the no weapon restrictions, and I'll also take another look at the (new?) Resist Fear description. __________________ Volothamp's Comeuppance Everything you ever needed to know about the entire Baldur's Gate series......except spoilers.

01-22-2002, 11:47 PM	#30
Magness Quintesson Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Manchester, NH, USA Posts: 1,025	Having just noticed this thread, I seem to be jumping into the middle of this "best paladin kit" sub-thread. Oh well... I, speaking for the great paladin Magness the Inquisitor, will defend the greatness of the Inquisitor kit. I, for one, have never found the paladin "Turn Undead" ability to be worth a thing. Paladins are tanks and tanks that are praying are not swinging their mighty swords/axes/etc. Turning undead is the job of a party's cleric. I've never gotten much value out of any paladin's cleric spells. I'd use the pre-battle or post-battle spells, but once again paladins are tanks and don't have time to be casting spells in the middle of a nasty melee. On the other hand, I have found the Inquisitor's super Dispel Magic and True Sight to be awesomely useful. My inquisitor's only fire off a DM in important and often desperate situations. For example, against a certain demon that you have to fight in the Underdark, the demon often cast some nasty spell that freezes up most of my party. Not wanting them to be sliced and diced, my Inquisitor will dispel the spell and unfreeze the remainder of the party. The speed and the incredible power of an inquisitor's Dispel Magic is awesome and well worth the trade offs. The immunities and the True Sight round out this kit nicely. I've never felt the need for the anti-dragon and demon bonuses given to Cavaliers. I've never had too much trouble taking down dragons. The level drain immunity of the Undead Hunter is great, given the considerable number of level-draining creatures. If the Undead Hunter kit had some sort of special attack (not the thac0 and damage pluses) like 2x power turn undead or sunray, I'd probably like them better. Having said this, Undead Hunter is my 2nd favorite paladin kit. In conclusion, Inquisitors are great IMHO because incredible usefulness of their 2 primary special abilities (dispel magic and true sight) to any party.

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