Pls help with realms?

[rodeoclown]

I am a relative noob, though I have read a lot of posts here.

Starting game over after reaching Arnika and realizing that my magic picks/chars are not so great.

Interested in some pointers from you guys about getting a more balanced magic presence. Main concern with current party is that all my magic seems to be pouring into one realm: alchemy... I would like more exposure to other realms for fun (maybe they are not as powerful, but I love seeing spell effects for the first time!)

Current party:

Alchemist: pretty good so far at lvl 8 or 9, happy with this char.

Ranger: Great char - def want one in my new party. Love those crit kills! (but already, you can see alchemy overlap)

Bishop: LOVE IT. But, from reading some posts here, someone emphasized that
Wizardy and Alchemy should be developed first (which I have done). So now we have a serious Alchemy overload I guess.

Samurai: Great, now that I have Bloodlust

Monk: Pretty horrible, I max out Martial Arts every level up, but still hitting 2 or 3 points of damage each hit. Awful. I understand this will improve. Like the fact that I cover Psionics with this char.

Gadget: Like thus char, even though not powerful yet - I see the potential, and it's fun, so...keeper.


For the new party, I am considering:

Ranger for sure (btw is there any disadvantage to using a ranged weapon at close range? - never seen this question brought up on the board)

Bishop for sure, but focus on Divinity and ? Realm instead of alchemy? And what do I do with those artifact points? should this char be my identifier? or use a spell for that?

Gadget: for sure

Samurai: like this char, but will not develop dual weapons this time. And I guess I should build up the two schools of wizardry that are not focused on by the bishop?

Now, I want a specialist mage, here and I did like my alchemist, but again, I was too alchemy focused (I think). I could either put an alchemist here and overlap with ranger, but I guess any magic user will be duplicatin something I already have...Psionics with Monk, etc.

Bottom line questions:
1. How do you suggest I develop my hybrids' magic skills in relation to the dedicated casters to complement, or to duplicate? (meaning, should i burn the same spell pick on 2 chars? (meaning, pick "Noxious Fumes" for both my alchemist and my ranger?

2. Should I use my Bishop to develop Alchemy (since many say this is the stongest realm) and use a different dedicated caster (Psionist or Mage) for my specialist mage?

3. I would imagine my ranger will be the LEAST developed of the hybrids in terms of magic since I would almost always prefer his long range arrow strikes. This leave my monk and samurai to cast spells for their ranged weapons. Which leaves Alchemy not so covered...leading back to : should I pick an Alchemist or develop with Bishop and choose Psionic or Mage?


I know there are no hard and fast answers, just looking for fresh thoughts from the board, after I have digested literally hundreds of posts about this...(but never really seen this specific question)

THANKS! This is a great board! Not much trash at all!

[HolyWarrior]

You are seriously lacking in divinity magic. Fortunately, you can have the bishop forget alchemy and start him learning divinity magic.
It sounds like you're not putting points into the monk's martial arts skill. He should be getting better damage than that.
The gadgie will come into his own.

You don't have a bad party to start with, just need better development.

welcome rc - here's some thoughts, although if you've been doing a lot of reading, i'm sure you'll recognise my opinions on a number of these issues

Originally posted by rodeoclown: Current party: Alchemist: pretty good so far at lvl 8 or 9, happy with this char. Ranger: Great char - def want one in my new party. Love those crit kills! (but already, you can see alchemy overlap) Bishop: LOVE IT. But, from reading some posts here, someone emphasized that Wizardy and Alchemy should be developed first (which I have done). So now we have a serious Alchemy overload I guess. Samurai: Great, now that I have Bloodlust Monk: Pretty horrible, I max out Martial Arts every level up, but still hitting 2 or 3 points of damage each hit. Awful. I understand this will improve. Like the fact that I cover Psionics with this char. Gadget: Like thus char, even though not powerful yet - I see the potential, and it's fun, so...keeper.

i agrew with HW, your current party isnt a really bad combination at all. the trick will be focusing the development of each character so that they each become great at something, and choosing those things for them to be great at such that they complement each other.

for the alchemist, spells, spells, and more spells. run up intelligence (so they learn college skills and get to powercast) and speed (so they get in early with the attacks and buffs - buffs are protection spells for your party, such as element shield). when you buy skills, put 3 into the alchemy book until you reach around 50 (including the bonus, that's around 35-38 without), and the other 6 into the colleges until around the same time. then start spreading around into shield & staff, or throwing, as you prefer. remember: dont feel compelled to use every single spell point as you get the chance. there are lots of opportunities to buy spells up to level 4 throughout the game.

for the ranger, monk, and samurai: my feeling is that hybrids never become great spell casters, but i know there are people here who disagree. i would run up their primary fighting stats (ranger: senses & dex, monk: strength & speed, samurai: strength & speed) and drop 3 points per level up into their spell books. learn spells as you can, and cast them at the beginning of each fight, if only once or twice. for other skills, build criticals for the monk and samurai, and ranged attack for the ranger, as those are the skills that control how often you'll get instant kills. the other 3 points should go into martial arts (monk), sword (samurai) and bow (ranger), until you max them, and then spread them as you see fit (incl in spells).

for the bishop, pump up intelligence until maxed, and speed (for initiative). your skill points should go exclusively into your preferred spellbooks until they're maxed (although i find it useful to dump a few points in the colleges early to get over those first 5 points when everything's red!) even more important than the alchemist, you dont want to spend every spell point as soon as you get it. there are lots of great spells later that you cant learn by purchasing/findings books. so really leverage that spending cash early and save the spell picks for later

i never play gadg's, so i'm sure someone else can provide better advice.

Originally posted by rodeoclown: Bottom line questions: 1. How do you suggest I develop my hybrids' magic skills in relation to the dedicated casters to complement, or to duplicate? (meaning, should i burn the same spell pick on 2 chars? (meaning, pick "Noxious Fumes" for both my alchemist and my ranger? 2. Should I use my Bishop to develop Alchemy (since many say this is the stongest realm) and use a different dedicated caster (Psionist or Mage) for my specialist mage? 3. I would imagine my ranger will be the LEAST developed of the hybrids in terms of magic since I would almost always prefer his long range arrow strikes. This leave my monk and samurai to cast spells for their ranged weapons. Which leaves Alchemy not so covered...leading back to : should I pick an Alchemist or develop with Bishop and choose Psionic or Mage?

1) dont worry about overlapping spell picks across characters. someone here once told a story about their party of 4 bishops (?) where they all cast low level spells, but in duplicate the damage really added up! in particular, you'll find that your hybrids and pure spell caster (alchemist) will run out of spell picks fairly quickly anyway.

2) yes, imo, alchemy is the best realm, so having an alchemist as your pure caster is a good choice. i also like the fact they can wear armour, whereas a mage or psionicist cant. given your party has holes with the priest spellbook (no coverage, as HW pointed out) and mage spellbook (samurai only covering), and the fact that these two books contain the four most useful "always-on" buffs in the game (armour plate, magic screen, missile shield, and enchant blade), you really want your bishop to get these two books up as fast as possible. the alchemist book has lots of good attacking spells, but the psionic book will give you depth in the mental college (which neither priest nor mage will give you much help with), so it's a toss-up, imo, on which third book to go after. as an added benefit, by going after the mage book, it will free up your samurai to work on fighting and worry less about developing spell casting.

3) i discussed my opinion of hybrids above, in some detail. to summarise, i dont believe you need to change the party composition, nor do i believe you should rely on your hybrids to cover spellbooks for this party

hope that helps - even if it is only one opinion!

[ 08-19-2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: sultan ]

[Deejax]

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] You've got a good party if you let the bishop specialize in divinity and wizardry. Use you level up points to increase these schools.

Originally posted by sultan: for the alchemist, spells, spells, and more spells. run up intelligence (so they learn college skills and get to powercast) and speed (so they get in early with the attacks and buffs - buffs are protection spells for your party, such as element shield). when you buy skills, put 3 into the alchemy book until you reach around 50 (including the bonus, that's around 35-38 without), and the other 6 into the colleges until around the same time. then start spreading around into shield & staff, or throwing, as you prefer. remember: dont feel compelled to use every single spell point as you get the chance. there are lots of opportunities to buy spells up to level 4 throughout the game.

I never use points at level up to increase the realms (fire, water, earth etc.) because they tend to increase rapidly. I do increase the schools (divinity, psionics, etc.) to ensure the fastest possible acces to higher level spells.

About spell picks. It depends a bit on how fast you reach Arnika. Mostly I use some spell pick for "practice" spells and save some for the higher level spells because you can buy the lower level spells.

I like to develop the magic skills of my hybrid characters. Most of my parties contain a samurai that uses magic for the long range. Of course the ranger is better with the bow (ranged criticals rule!) so he will use his magic less. Rangers (and alchemists) do have the advantage that they increase their alchemy skill by mixing potions.

Have fun. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ScottG]

For a beginners look at strategy and class/race/attribute selection you might want to check out my post here:

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...;f=15;t=003356

btw, I'm the one that mentioned the spells in duplicate that Sultan is refering to...and the specifics are in the post mentioned above.

tactically you have a problem (assuming your developing a ranger and gadgeteer as ranged attackers more than as a melee'ers). Your problem is that you don't have a proper meatshield character. You have either a samurai or a monk as a meatshield and as your monk develops Stealth skill opponents will naturally "focus" on you samuari as your meatshield. Samurai are generally not too good for meatshield duty (and are tough to develop this way). You'll also need to pack LOTS of stamina potions for your gadgeteer.

Try to develop your Bishop for ALL major and minor classes of magic. If possible do not select any divinity spells - instead purchase them in Arnika.

[Wereboar]

Current party:

Alchemist: Focus on spells, like Sultan said.

Ranger: alchemy overlapping isn't a problem. He'll rarely cast big offensive spells. But he's a minor healer when needed, and my cast some protective spells later.

Bishop: With a pure alchemist, concentrating on alchemy was a bad idea. Especially for the buffs, you want a pure spellcaster with access to mage and priest spells. Since there is no other, your bishop should concentrate on these realms.
I'd push int and piety with a bishop, to get max spell points.

Samurai: One of the characters i usually develop dual wield, for the additional critical chances. But watch your number of attacks: if you can get several attacks without a secondary weapon, stop using dual wield for some time. Later, when your sword skill is high, you can start dual wielding again without loosing primary potential.
But with your party, the samurai will get hit most. In this case, a shield is better.

Monk: Push strength for damage, and speed for number of attacks.

Gadget: Will get very powerful very late, but is weak for a long time (very weak until he gets noxious fumes)

General note on the hybrids: They will never become great sepllcasters (at least not until you're a very experienced player). I usually push their primary realm to be able to learn higher level spells (up to level 5), but don't push int or pie. Raising combat vulue is much more important.

Ranger for sure (btw is there any disadvantage to using a ranged weapon at close range? - never seen this question brought up on the board)

As far as i can tell from experience, there is none.

[rodeoclown]

I have to say, you guys ROCK!

Especially after I looked at my rambling post...what a mess.

Thank you so much - and Scott, thanks for the link. I had printed that out perviously and read it over a couple of times.

Some comments:

I started over last night, and basically did what you guys suggested - I am making my Bishop focus on the Div and Wizardry realms to cover those bases.

I thought about using a fighter this time (instead of monk), but since I played previous Wizardr(ies?) with a monk and samurai (which I loved), I wanted to stick with these chars for fun more than effectiveness as a fighter.

Can't remember if the samurai in Wiz 7 could cast spells or not? I don't remember having to make such a hard choice before (of course I also prob did not read msg boards like I do now, so I was oblivious for the most part)

Anyway, I guess I could start again and have a fighter as my meat shield, and drop my monk. Seems I have a lot of late game chars already, so that might be a good idea to benefit some more in the first and middle parts. I don;t want to drop the samurai - I actually got an instant kill against the king crab in the lower monastery! (awesome - I never knew they could do that so early) I saw him and remembered him from before, so I knew it might be a tough battle, so I was stunned to see him explode in my face right as soon as we initiated battle! It took me a while to figure out what happened...

Going back to the meat shield - strangely enough, my mook ranger seems to be targeted consistently more than the sam for some reasons (in both this new game and the previous one).

I just do not want to get into a 4 fighter, 2 bishop party type of situation- I know that would be more effective (and prob easier), but it does not seem like much fun. Part of the draw of these games to me personally is being able to create and customize lots of different chars, and fighters are so plain vanilla (yes, I know they rock) that it just seems...I don't know. Hard to explain. To give you an idea, when I play Diablo games, I NEVER select the fighter. That's the best I can do to explain my reasons...

OK, thanks a ton again guys. Good people here.

Way OT, but: I know you guys, being hard core CRPG'ers are waiting for Lionheart (like I was). I consider Fallout to be one of the best CRPG's, and I know it's based on the same engine. The only thing bad, though, is I read recently that it is not turn based. UGH! What a waste!

[Wereboar]

Can't remember if the samurai in Wiz 7 could cast spells or not?

He could. He started to learn them at level 3 - two levels later. Ans since in Wiz7 the maximum spell power was reached earlier (you could learn level 7 spells at level 13), and you got more levels, these two levels didn't make much difference. So in Wiz7, hybrids were much better than pure spellcasters.

Going back to the meat shield - strangely enough, my mook ranger seems to be targeted consistently more than the sam for some reasons (in both this new game and the previous one).

With this party, i would use monk and samurai as front row, and ranger and gatgeteer to cover the flanks. Then the Samurai would be te main target.

Part of the draw of these games to me personally is being able to create and customize lots of different chars, and fighters are so plain vanilla (yes, I know they rock) that it just seems...I don't know. Hard to explain.

I usually take a fighter when i have use one melee character. Maybe with two, and a small party. For a normal party, you don't need that much a meatshield.

[ScottG]

You are welcome rodeoclown! (yup, its a good forum for this game - lots of good contribution and nice peeps.)

Since you have selected a Mook as a Ranger I'm thinking you made this choice for a certain weapon? If thats the case then develop the Mook as a melee'er-meatshield, not as a ranged attacker - if you do that then you'll have a character that functions passably well as a meatshield. (and this doesn't mean the ranger won't be a good ranged attacker - it just won't be the best that it can be for this meathod of attack.

Mook Ranger Melee'er-Meatshield suggestions...
on creation you can crank up vit. and str. to 64 and still have another 12 pts. to distribute elsewhere (dex 67). I'd continue to up str. and vit. for the next 4 levels (i.e. level 5). At level 6 I'd continue with str. but stop with vit. and start on dex.. This should give you a strong base and build-up of increased hitpoints that will continue to accumulate more throughout the game. Likewise the start with 67 in dex. allows this character to unlock reflexation (nice for a melee'er) at level 16 (and of course dex. increases AC and attacks and more importantly your ability to hit). At level 13 you will have unlocked powerstrike from str. The character will be lacking in some additional attacks and swings/firing for the lack of speed, however it shouldn't be that bad and for ranged attacks a double shot crossbow will work nicely to counter this. Train these characters well in Arnika and you could leave there with powerstrike for this character (plus a very high ranged/bow/sword skill base). The lack of power cast won't be a problem for this character if you fire-off spells in 3's.

If you really like the Samurai then def. consider the Rogue/Stealth route and Don't wear armor (besides, Samurai don't have good armor available anyway). Make sure when your training the Samurai that you use a dagger in the off-hand - not a sword. After all what you really want here is a melee character to come in and occasionally turn any opponent into bloody chunks with a critical. The best way to achieve this is with a critical skill character (ex. samuarai) and with them utilizing critical weapons - attacking and hiting as often as possible. There are a few very nice swords that acomplish this but NONE that can be used in the off-hand position. A stilleto dagger however can be utilized in the off-hand position - and it has a very nice critical capability.

Consider for this character's race a Felpurr or a Hobbit (preferably the Hobbit). Hobbits acomplish the speed and dex. best because they can start off with 64 maxed in both. You then have 7 extra points to distribute which should be in str.. Continue to pump in points untill dex. and speed are both maxed at level 13. Then continue on with str and senses. The base requirements for the level of Rogue will already be there, so you won't have to worry about that when you want to switch to that class to develop that skill. Alternativly to the Rogue stealth class you could choose a Ninja just as easily (which would allow you to continue with your critical capability training while stealth training). Your str. can get an extra boost with a certain critical sword placed in the game for latter battles around level 16 and above.

If you still want the Monk you can certainly still keep it, but it isn't neccesary.

[Wereboar]

The best way to achieve this is with a critical skill character (ex. samuarai) and with them utilizing critical weapons - attacking and hiting as often as possible. There are a few very nice swords that acomplish this but NONE that can be used in the off-hand position.

Enchanted Wakazashi (Samurai only). It has the advantages that is uses the samurai's primary skill, which usually is early at 100+.

A mook makes a very nice samirai, especially in melee-oriented parties. Spells for long rang, dualing swords for short range, and a two-handed sword for extended range.