Monk

[Ziggurat]

Sometimes I do a bit of both. Like make a Mook ranger (a strong match, with a great weapon later) or a Dwarf bishop (somewhat breaking the mold, but stronger survival at early game). There are some combos that might not work well. Never tried a Lizardman alchemist, not sure if I want to. If you have a party of 6, you have more leeway. With smaller parties you need be more careful since every char counts.

My current part is "crit-heavy", just to see how it plays. Other than that, the races are somewhat "matched" to profession.

Human monk (bare hands, wrist rocket)
Dracon Samurai (ivory blade, heater shield, siege arbalest)
Faerie Ninja (started as Human ninja to get ninja armor before lev 2,Cane of Corpus, Winterwand)
Elf Bishop (Vampire chain, *light* shield, wrist rocket)

This plays great, but must admit it was harder than usual before lev 11. Weapons weren't that good and fighting skills weren't up. This party did make it to Arnika while still lev 2. Currently at lev 20 in Rapax Castle. About half of kills are instant. Armor ranges from 25 to 30 (for the bishop! *light* shield helps) with armor plate on.

[ 07-20-2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Originally posted by ScottG: The theme is: What does this character need to do in the "party matrix" and when does it need to do it? This has been and always will be the starting point of ANY optimal party.

Exactly the original theme I was building on. Thanks, Scott.

The roles I described for the monk are things I believe most parties can benefit from and are things the monk can deliver to EXTREMELY well.

To clarify further, building strength and speed make them a fantastic fighter. Speed gets them lots of strikes and helps learn criticals, and strength helps with both penetration and damage. In my experience, it is not uncommon for a mid-late game monk to do 240 damage per round with 12 strikes against well-armoured opposition.

Sure, they arent tanks, i dont run up vitality and as a result they dont have tons of hit points. And later i have to supplement their armour class with amulets and cloaks because they dont open reflection this way. But that's not their role.

Originally posted by ScottG: What tasks are they charged with... The real determining factor here isn't the class of the character, its the simple fact that the particular character in question can only perform one type of action a round, (its a basic concept but it has profound implications for this game). For instance a Hybrid will generally be either perfoming physical combat (((((OR))))) performing magic - NOT BOTH.

Sure, at any one time each RPC can only do one thing. But over the course of even a single battle each character can contribute in different ways. Fighters and Rogues, two of my favourite classes, rarely just do melee. Sure, I've played the "all cursed" party, but for most characters in most parties, the dual-mace fighter or dual-stilleto rogue also has a bow for those rounds when the spellcasters/bard need to set up buffs or inhibiting spells.

For ranged attack, monks can only throw or cast. For most hybrids, casting is difficult to get good at because the spells are spread across so many colleges. For the monk, it's easy - mental. Forget everything else. Drop 3 points per level up into the spell book, cast a mind stab or ego whip (when you get it) for the first round of each fight, and make sure your monk does all your identifying. With this method, I can get 80+ in the mental college very quickly. Easy.

And ego whip is way more effective than throwing.

That's why monks rock - they can develop a well-balanced role much more readily than any other hybrid.

[ScottG]

Sultan....

In my mind to be a fighter (for this game) you'll need to be able to perform melee and meatshield duty UNLESS your character reliably and frequently performs criticals. A monk isn't going to be able to take many hits or reliably and frequently perform criticals until much latter in the game (if at all for the criticals) - in my book that makes them a pretty poor fighter. For most of the game you'll simply be wasting time healing that character or having the monk spend its bashing time quaffing potions - not exactly optimal in any situation. As far as meatshield duty, the game is incredibly demanding - typically if your weaker hitpoint character is within range of physical attack then that character will be attacked b4 your higher hitpoint counterpart. Even if they are not directly in range some opponents will manuever themselves to hit that weaker character. Now it could be that this isn't the case with high stealth on your Monk and none on your fighter/samurai etc., if it isn't (and I haven't played the game this way) then I'll retract the majority of what I've just stated here and would have no problem developing the Monk for melee damage duty (+ extras for psionics) - but you'll still run into the VERY significant attribute problem I mentioned earlier (though less so because you won't be spending many points on Vitality).

The optimal solution is having your buffer meatshield bashing and taking hits while your mages are puting up defenses and/or utilizing offensive spells. Yes the extra of ranged attack on these meatshields is a nice added bonus - but thats all it is: a bonus unless the attack is critical in nature and/or is multiplied among 4 or more characters. Moreover this bonus attack may not be a bonus. Typically those opponents will run right up to your meatshield melee'er within the first round (particularly if utilizing Chameleon), all then this character needs is a poor initiative to pop them melee style that very first round - multiple times. And of course the melee attack is far more damaging than the ranged attack. Furthermore to develop this skill in most melee'ers is rather easy. Conversly to develop magical ability in these characters is not at all easy. For instance you like ego whip (my 2nd fav. damage spell), but when do you first have the oppurtunity to cast this spell with a Monk? I believe its level 14 (and remember this is a hybrid so it actually is taking longer to get to level 14). Even then your only powering the spell minimally for several levels. And its worse than that. Additionally, unless you have developed you Monk CT style (and even then you might not have unlocked powercast yet), then you don't have powercast and you might not do ANY damage to your opponents. Though mind stab doesn't have nearly the detriment (level-wise) it has similar problems with penetration and its only good for one opponent AND is only good once that round (as opposed to a ranged attack which can easily have two or more attacks even minimally developed and will almost never be "resisted").

As for the very nature of improving magical skills in Hybrids - it really isn't that you have multiple sub-disciplines to develop. Its that you have a 5 level floor before spells can be cast and because you typically won't be performing magic that often. If you utilized magic more often with this character then you would find placing points in in these sub-disciplines "pointless" because they would improve on their own VERY quickly. (Actually Bishops are really the only difficult casters to fully develop in the game.) Still, you can get around this problem for the most part with creative training, but you can't get around the "5 level floor" problem.

And yup, ego whip is WAY more effective than ranged physical unless you have good ranged critical X4. Just think about what ego whip is like full power x4 at 11th level and x4 at 14th level with 25 points in powercast - now THATS damage!

As for Monk vs. other hybrids.... Either a Lord or a Valkyrie can do more damage throughout most of the game melee style with better weapons that have better effects - effects that typically better a monks ability to critical (for at least 50% of the game). They can also wear armor that provides for higher AC's later (+ magical resistances and extra goodies). Make Wounds works MUCH better against more types of opponents than Mind stab. Whirlwind however isn't nearly as good a substitute for Ego Whip. Rangers can come very close to the melee damage potential of Lords or Valkyries with a doubleshot crossbow and usually have better potential to critical than Monks with melee. Rangers also have the spell Sleep which works EXTREMELY well in conjunction with their ranged ability. Whipping Rocks isn't as effective as ego whip (maximally speaking), but its fairly close and more importantly it can be acquired earlier (as it is a level 3 spell instead of level 4), thus allowing for more damage earlier. All 3 of these characters are considerably easier to develop because fewer attributes are required. The serious downside to all of them is the danger of running out of stamina (as opposed to a Monk).

[ChaosTheorist]

I'm not saying every fighter type should do the same as fighter; that would be boring.

Sorry; I was under the impression that you "fired" your Valkyrie party specifically--and exclusively--because they didn't do as much damage as you thought they should, and I thought I recalled a specific comparison to Fighters in that thread, and a comment about Fighters being the only worthwhile melee combatants in the game. My mistake.

I know this might sound silly but, I actually like "winning" the combats! Ressurection powder is limited and because I'm anal I like classes leveling up together which means nobody dying.

No deaths ever? Then what's the point? The only way to achieve that on a first-run basis (as opposed to reloading a save from before the battle and doing the combat again...and again...) is to only fight when you have an overwhelming advantage; now THAT "would be boring". And even then you're not safe: critters with IK abilities or casters of instant-kill type spells can always get in a lucky shot. Character death is part-and-parcel of party-based RPGs. WRT death and XP: as long as the killed character is resurrected before the end of the combat--even if it's in the last round after all the monsters are dead--the recently-dead character still gets his/her share of the XP. That's why I have every character in the party carry 2-4 Resurrection powders--even the ones who can cast Resurrection.

Originally posted by ScottG: In my mind to be a fighter (for this game) you'll need to be able to perform melee and meatshield duty UNLESS your character reliably and frequently performs criticals.

You're assuming there's only one best way to build a fighter: melee and meatshield. I dont disagree that this is quite possibly the most effective type of fighter in the game. However, the reason I'm still playing Wiz8 years after its release is the challenge to develop different kinds of parties and characters.

Even in a three fighter party, I would find little enjoyment making them all identical meatshields.

Originally posted by ScottG: Now it could be that this isn't the case with high stealth on your Monk and none on your fighter/samurai etc., if it isn't (and I haven't played the game this way) then I'll retract the majority of what I've just stated here and would have no problem developing the Monk for melee damage duty (+ extras for psionics)

Indeed, this is the case. I dont train stealth on any characters. Even in the case where there's a rogue and/or ninja on the frontline, the fighters/samurais/valks or others without stealth (and with loads of armour) attract all the attention.

However, since I dont open reflexion for the monks (I find that the high martial arts skill more than compensates for an average dex when it comes to hit/penetrate), I do supplement their armour class with amulets of healing and a cloak of many colours as soon as I can get them, and they are readily available.

Originally posted by ScottG: but you'll still run into the VERY significant attribute problem I mentioned earlier (though less so because you won't be spending many points on Vitality).

Sorry, I wasnt clear about how I'm developing the monk. The fact is that, without putting a single point on intelligence or piety I can get their mental college casting up to fantastically high levels - high enough that I'm casting ego whip at lvl 4 or 5 green as soon as it's opened.

So I'm not following the "CT" method involving power cast. Yes, this means at the highest levels, the mental damage doesnt cut through like a purecaster - but they're not a purecaster; they're a fighter who can do massive amounts of group-ranged damage. Akin to a bard with their instruments.

On a practical level, this means that my monk only develops 2 key stats (speed and strength), and then supplements a bit of senses (early, to learn crits) and vitality (late, to help with stamina - swinging 12 times per round is tiring, even to watch!).

Originally posted by ScottG: remember this is a hybrid so it actually is taking longer to get to level 14).

Personally, I really enjoy fast-levelling, playing small parties and pures whenever I can (ie within the planned party dynamic), so it pains me to say this: If the experience point sheet posted at mindflay is right, the "slow" development issue is relatively minor.

By level 19, pure melees are one level ahead of pure casters, which are one level ahead of hybrids, which are one level ahead of bishops/ninjas. And this doesnt change for the remainder of the game! (Prior to level 11, no characters are behind more than a level)

Ok, sure, we'd all love an extra 6, 12, or 18 ability points on our characters, but by that point in the game, you've already added 120 or more points into our characters abilities, and their key skills are all well into the 80s. A few points dont make that big a difference.

In fact, the bigger factor affecting hybrids is point distribution at the beginning. Perhaps this brings up back full circle to your original point about monks "needing" a lot of stats. However, it must be clear that there's a difference between where they start and how you develop them.

Originally posted by ScottG: As for the very nature of improving magical skills in Hybrids - it really isn't that you have multiple sub-disciplines to develop. Its that you have a 5 level floor before spells can be cast and because you typically won't be performing magic that often.

Actually, it's both - I stand corrected.

With regard to the former problem (multiple disciplines), I feel that's the most difficult one to get around as most hybrids already have extra skills that need developing (eg criticals, dual weapons, ranged AND melee). So I solve it by focusing on a single college if at all possible. This gives me the *luxury* of not having to pump intelligence or piety (sure, at the expense of powercast).

With regard to the latter, I've posted in other threads that I feel level 6 and 7 spells are generally extremely difficult to develop effectively for hybrids within the standard game plot/timeline. Monks, the way I develop them, do not suffer that within the mental college (and that college only). But, the real shame is that mind flay, the lvl 7 psionicist spell, is only more effective than ego whip at 5+ green, and even then costs twice as much to cast. Hardly efficient.

Originally posted by ScottG: As for Monk vs. other hybrids....

Sorry, this is already a much longer post than I intended. I'll withhold a detailed analysis of your evaluation of the hybrids, some of which I agree with but some of which I disagree with. However, that is mostly because of how I develop the monk.

I can see now that I'm suffering from much single-mindedness with regard to monk development. I've tried developing them a number of ways, and stuck with them long after I started hating their ineffectiveness. Eventually, I found this way, and perhaps it's not the best way to build a monk.

Of the ways I've found to build other hybrids effectively, they often required a special kind of party to support/incubate them until they're ready. Even the valkyrie, which is by far the easiest hybrid to develop, is a waste in a party that has priest spells covered by another caster - you might just as well dual-class them over to fighter after level 11.

But this monk fits into most any party for the reasons I originally stated: solid damage contribution, criticals, decent spellcasting, and all that extra carry capacity!

[Wereboar]

Just a few days ago, i started another melee-heavy party: Fighter, rogue, monk, and a bishop. Since its melee-oriented, i will move around a lot, and thus decided to go for short + extended weapon instead of a missile weapon.

In the first levels, the fighter was best, followed by the rogue. But to my surprise, at level 8 my monk already had up to 6 attacks a round (i raised strengt and speed). He didn't do that much damage with each attack, but it added up. His kill started to outnumber the fighter, and the rogue is far behind, even with Bloodlust (if he hits he does good damage, but he rarely hits).

Now at level 10-11, the fighter suddenly gets up to 2x2 attacks with the light Diamond Epee, and the rogue often hits several times per fight. And the rogue got some criticals with the thieves dagger. Still the monk leads in kills, but the others are catchin up.

And i forgot, at level 7 the monk started to knock out opponents. He knocked out 3 of the 5 swallowers i fought (in two fights), whilest my fighter got swallowed every time (i think she gets used to it). So for me, it doesn't look that the monk needs to be level 14+ to become powerful.

[Vraul]

The monk is a killing machine.

I've got a Solo Felpurr Monk at about lvl 12, and he's unstoppable.

Start by building dex and speed. This gives him the number of attacks he needs to do real damage. You will need to purchase and carry stamina potions, as he will tire when fighting groups (solo anyway).

Then work strength to increase damage and stamina.

When you run into a group of weak monsters early on (low level slimes and such), let them swing and miss while you defend, to train stealth a bit. I've got my stealth up to 95, and at this point armour class isn't a problem. With reflexion coming shortly, it will only get better.

Magic is fairly limited so far. I've got decent healing and some mental, but really sticking to hand-to-hand combat. If I need to, I'll train magic w/ Knock-Knock later on. I'll try to avoid that, as it can be tedious.

[The Procrastinator]

Knock knock is not in the psionic spell list, but charm, divine trap or mindread are even better training spells.

[Vraul]

Crap. I was counting on Knock-knock to open the gates at Ascension Peak. I think those are the only ones I have to open. Most chests and such I figured I could just ignore, because the monk doesn't need much. Is there any chance I can open those big gates with knock picks & the poseur's cap? I sure don't want to drag around a lame NCP. Any creative solutions?

Also, regarding the Zatoichi Bo. I read on a post that it was in a cave behind the Rapax King. I couldn't find it in my last game. If my memory serves me, though, the Rapax King was in the Rapax Away Camp. I don't remember any caves there. Can anyone be more specific?

[Ziggurat]

The Zatoichi staff is found in the Rapax King's apartment. You get it it from a deposit slip obtained from the Constable. Just did that not long ago. You may be thinking of the Staff of Doom found under a waterfall in the MW. It is equally good or better, but cursed. The cave in the Away Camp has nothing of value, including the Queen.

[ 07-25-2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]