Keldorn is a Racist?

[Russ]

It's an interesting debate: clearly there are several different visions of Paladinhood at work here.

In mine, I see no problem with the two of them fighting, and in fact see it as an inevitability. Put in PnP, the protagonist could take Keldorn aside, give him all the context, and ask for both his forbearance and his good example: in which case Keldorn would soon be setting Viconia's ears on fire with his extolling of the glories of the rule of law as used to promote the greatest possible good for the benefit of the greatest amount of people.

But that's PnP. And a ToB spoiler doesn't really change a Paladin's role. The role of the priest is to exhort the faithful to avoid evil: the role of the Paladin is to uphold the good, support the law, and smash and uproot evil down to its little selfish roots. If you're running a multiplayer like Galadria is, where she very clearly has a deep, personal identification with a character, she can go about that sort of PnP roleplaying: it's one of the really cool things about the BG series. But for the computer itself, it's not possible. In the game for which it's coded, SoA, Vicky's evil. And although she's wavery, starting-to-be-watered-down evil, she stays that way for the game: maybe she couldn't handle Lolth the demon queen, like her sisters, but she seems just fine with Shar, worshipping the eternal darkness... who, in a Paladin's book, is pretty much two different flavors of the same bad pudding. If Keldorn were somehow to encounter Vicky in ToB, otoh, when she's honestly going through a crises of conscience (or perhaps, developing one?)... that might be different. Would make a very, very cool patch. That kind of npc-interaction-expansion patch, even with amateurish writing, would interest me a lot more than one that lets me bring over gear from BG1....

edit: as an aside, can you imagine being a paladin and having to overhear Vicky praying for her spells at night? Oh great Queen of Darkness, grant me power in your service in order that the light may be dimmed.... etc etc?

[Madman-Rogovich]

man i should not of entered this thread it is unwarned spoilers galore i havent played Tob yt cheers guys sheeesh

[Russ]

Sorry Madman, but as long as I've given you the spoiler...

The Holy Flamethrower can be found under the priest's bed in the Temple of Lathander... but you have to be good, have a dex of 20, and be playing on Tuesday for it to show up.... I wasn't real happy with that spoiler either, but I was fairly warned about it. w/o having it, I think there'd be precious little point to the debate.

[Dreamer128]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir Byronas:


Drizzt is Chaotic Good and he is the only drow (until now) who is good.

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Your forgeting the most powerfull drow ever!
Me !!!
They are excellent for playing F-T or Wizard Slayer.

[Galadria]

Wow, Dreamer, a drow paladin! I always wondered why Drizzt was described as a drow ranger in the BGI manual, but then I read the Salvatore Dark Elf trilogy and saw why. Russ, in our party, we just stick our cloaks in our ears when Vickey says those things. She's usually too busy in Attalus' (my husband, the protagonist) bedroll anyway to remember to pray at night. LOL. Seriously, a good argument. We basically came to the same conclusion as you, which is why I finally joined Keldorn's Order. I don't say he's a racist, I say he takes her too seriously. You have to cut the guy some slack, he IS an inquisitor.

[Kaleban]

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ:
It's an interesting debate: clearly there are several different visions of Paladinhood at work here.

edit: as an aside, can you imagine being a paladin and having to overhear Vicky praying for her spells at night? Oh great Queen of Darkness, grant me power in your service in order that the light may be dimmed.... etc etc?

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Two good points. I never have envisioned Paladinhood as upholding the law of the land. Why? Because if the law of the land is oppressive, it would be a Paladin's duty to assist in destroying the dictator in power, and placing a benevolent ruler in the seat of power. To allow an unjust course to continue is the same as doing the deed yourself, for you condone it by a lack of resistance. I think a Paladin should only have a "Good" alignment, no Law, Neutral, or Chaos involved, for a Paladin strives to do the right thing regardless of the temporal laws of man. After all he/she is a crusader of truth, faith, and bravery, and as we all know laws very seldomly accomplish any of those qualities.

Also, in a world like Faerun, where gods are KNOWN to exist, a Paladin would also be aware of the interplay between good and evil. Without one, the other cannot exist. A paladin would be religiously tolerant I think, for we superimpose our values from the real world in this discussion. Would you have an objection to Islam if Mohammed himself walked down to the corner grocery store to pick up peanut butter? My point is that you cannot argue the existence of beings like Shar, for they do exist in the Forgotten Realms world. Viconia's praying to her god is the same as Keldorn and his faith (although it can't really be called faith, since the belief is based in fact!).

Anyways, paladins should always strive to do the good thing in any situation regardless of the laws of the land, and murdering someone due to their birth parents seems a bit odd to me, since it would mean that Keldorn should even more fervently try to kill the protagonist who is basically an avatar of the god of murder!!! Why give a potentially evil god a chance, but not a mortal drow elf with questionable ethics???

[Dragontooth]

ummmmmmmm in my game i let that witch Veronica burn at the stake!! FIRE FIRE FIRE!! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Lucifer Lord of demons]

hey 4 the people asking about what Keldorn would do if he met Dizzt he does!
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He says that Drizzt is a true hero and one of the greatest defenders of justice.He literelly bows down before him!!!! And if you attack Drizzt Keldorn will join Drizzt and Kick Your A**.

[Russ]

quote:

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I never have envisioned Paladinhood as upholding the law of the land. Why? Because if the law of the land is oppressive, it would be a Paladin's duty to assist in destroying the dictator in power, and placing a benevolent ruler in the seat of power

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The 2nd edition started to allow holy warriors of various different faiths to try to address the spectrum of possibilities.. though I prefer the specialty priests as such. Used to play a specialty priest of Tempus in PnP. He was a holy warrior, but he weren't no paladin... The Paladin is special. He is, and must be, lawful good. As a justification for this, besides simply being the ultimate good warrior... rangers and paladins are both required to be good. Both of them, through their goodness, obtain powers that regular warriors do not, no matter how woodcrafty or goldenhearted they may be. No barbarian, no matter how mighty, no matter how good with animals, no matter how able to survive -50 degree blizzards, will ever be able to tap into the divine and heal another man's wounds, or cure an old lady of poisoned meal, or a pig of hoof-and-mouth (and if you want to see where a high-level ranger is valuable to a rural community in PnP roleplaying, folks...). Why?

The ranger is more complex, so let's stick to the paladin: the paladin is defined as lawful. Always. The paladin lives a life of ascetic discipline, and makes tremendous personal sacrifices in order to uphold the good. His power comes from that combination of discipline, self-sacrifice, and the good.

In places where the law is evil, paladins simply don't exist. Zhentil keep is an orderly place... but its inhabitants view law and order as a way of gaining and maintaining personal power, just like the stereotype of the corrupt cop who hides behind the aegis of his badge. Lawful evil doesn't get power, obviously, because order is twisted toward inherently selfish ends. No personal sacrifice. Lawful neutral doesn't get it, because the order is an end, a good, in and of itself. Neutral good and chaotic good, while having vast reservoirs of benefice, are unable to make the sort of drastic personal sacrifices and acts of discipline required to make the grade. The ranger upholds the good, often a very wild and wooly good. The paladin upholds the good order...

[Barb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ:
Sorry Madman, but as long as I've given you the spoiler...

The Holy Flamethrower can be found under the priest's bed in the Temple of Lathander... but you have to be good, have a dex of 20, and be playing on Tuesday for it to show up.... I wasn't real happy with that spoiler either, but I was fairly warned about it. w/o having it, I think there'd be precious little point to the debate.

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Okay, Is their seriously a holy flamethrower or is that a joke?