Multiclassed characters -- what do you think of them?

[krunchyfrogg]

I just wonder what everybody else thinks of multiclassed characters. I'm playing this game for the first time (with Trials of the Luremaster installed) and have 4 multiclassed characters in a six character party.

I have:

Human Paladin
Half-Elf Bard
Gnome Ftr/Illusionist
Half-Elf Ftr/Druid
Dwarf Ftr/Cleric
Elf Ftr/Thief

I kinda wish I played the Ftr/Thief as a F/M/T, but OTOH I haven't had any extra scrolls in this game, and the advancement is slow enough with these guys.

[Soothsayer]

Youre playing a 6-character party, with 4 multiclassed, this means the levelling up is going to be reeeaaaallllyy slow.

This may suit your style of gaming, I dont know. Personally I like to have a small number of elite players, which is why I rarely have a party larger than 4 characters.

As for multiclassed characters, some are great, some are awful. It totally depends on their two classes, and what you hope to use them for.

For example, in a small party I believe a Ranger/Cleric is totally invaluable. Because it serves two 'fairly' important roles as one. Multiclassed characters shouldnt be seen as more powerful options, often they are much weaker.

If you need a fighter, get a fighter. If you mess about with multiclassed characters, youre more likely to end up with a low-level warrior with some useful abilities, which can be great, but hes no fighter, which is what you wanted.

All Im saying is, a multiclassed character should never be expected to fullfill an important role in a party (eg a primary spellcaster, or a primary tank) they should however, be used when youre party needs a few different, low-level, specialist abilities.

I, personally, much prefer Dual-Classed characters to Multiclassed. Dual-Classing allows you to pick a profession that has invaluable skills, but one that has little high-level use (eg theif, cleric). You can then advance a few levels in this profession, providing your party with those invaluable skills, youre character will then Dual-Class to something with more useful high-level abilities (eg fighter, mage) and advance to a nice, high, elite level as that profession, while still being able to find the occasional trap if he needs to.

Sorry if that was all a bit garbled, its getting pretty late here so my thought-process might not be totally coherent [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hope my opinion helps.

[ 09-24-2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Soothsayer ]

[NobleNick]

krunchyfrogg,

I, like Soothsayer, prefer DC Fighters over MC. I had 1 MC character in each of my first 2 parties, and have ZERO in my current Power Party. But I think that Soothsayer and I are in the minority. Keeping all that in mind...

If your party is destined for IWD + HoW (and optionally +TotLM) on Normal difficulty, then you will get plenty of XP to make this party work. (But might be a stretch if only doing IWD.)

The biggest thing that I don't like about MC Fighters is that they can only stack PP 2 high in a weapon. The DC Fighter gets to stack 5 high, giving higher damage, higher THAC0 and a FULL EXTRA ApR: considerable advantages. (But if you DC out of Fighter at a low level, the THAC0 advantage over the MC Fighter evaporates in the late game.) After holding a hard-core position in earlier years, I have relented on my zeal for DC Fighter mixes enough to allow that the MC Fighter/Thief is a reasonable trade-off to have the Thief skills available for the entire game.

With the Bard and MC Illusionist, you will have plenty of magic power. The Bard will actually be more powerful than the MC Mage in the end game, for spells that take caster's CLVL into account. Your F/T was definitely a better choice than F/M/T for the party you have.

Adding the Bard to a fighter-heavy party was an excellent choice.

The Paladin will be at least as effective as a Straight Class (SC) Fighter, in late IWD, HoW and beyond, if you find the right weapon for him in IWD.

I didn't know a Dwarf could be a Cleric. (Maybe it's Mage I'm thinking about.) Anyway, many on this forum love the MC F/D and the MC F/C

Hope you found this interesting.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[krunchyfrogg]

Originally posted by Soothsayer: Hope my opinion helps.

It does. I appreciate all the help I can get.

Originally posted by NobleNick: I, like Soothsayer, prefer DC Fighters over MC. I had 1 MC character in each of my first 2 parties, and have ZERO in my current Power Party. But I think that Soothsayer and I are in the minority.

What's your power party consist of? If you two are in the minority, what's the majority say?

Originally posted by NobleNick: Hope you found this interesting.

Very much so.

[Jaguar]

This is what I love about this website. People ask all the questions I want to ask, but don't think of...if that makes sense.

Excellent post!

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by krunchyfrogg: What's your power party consist of?

Thought you'd never ask! The party is only in the Vale, at the moment, so the below is just the current plan.

1.) DC Fighter(13)/Druid
2.) DC Fighter(13)/Thief
3.) DC Fighter(13)/Neutral_Cleric
4.) DC Good_Cleric(12)/Ranger
5.) DC Fighter(9)/Illusionist
6.) H-elf Bard

In addition, I have a "mercenary" that I "hire" in place of Character 5, when need be:

5a.) Halfling Thief

I tried to do without; but finally needed the Thief to dig into a certain NPC's dirty past in Kuldahar. I haven't had to take her out on adventure, yet, although the party has suffered some minor damage on at least 4 occasions, from sprung traps. Any reasonable person would have just made Character 2 an MC F/T; but I really wanted the extra 1.0 ApR that going to 5 PP in a weapon gives you.

If you two are in the minority, what's the majority say?

The majority prefer MC or Single Class (SC), mostly (I am guessing) because the player gets constant access to abilities of both classes (MC) and fast character progression (SC). The DC typically allows a stronger character in the end game (especially DC Fighters); but you need to plan for it, stack PP correctly, and excercise patience. Also, you pay for the increased end-game power by losing access to some abilities somewhere in the mid-game.

Not trying to sound snotty, but I think the biggest contributor to the lack of DC popularity (versus MC) is that it takes a combination of ability to plan (presumably enabled because you have already played the game once, or talked to someone who has) plus patience to work with a sub-optimal party in the mid-game. (For example: I could have strengthened my planned end-game party even more by making Character 5 a Fighter(13)/Illusionist. But that would have me waiting 14 CLVLs with NO Fighters; and there is an end, even, to my patience!)

Other contributors are: DC is not a viable method for solo parties; and on Heart of Fury mode, the very high XP makes MC characters good enough that DC is not needed. Some folks like to use the extra PPs that a Fighter gets to sample a wide variety of weapons, which totally negates the the main advantage a DC Fighter has over an MC. Finally: You can't DC a Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Halfling, or H-elf; so roleplayers might find the build limiting in that respect.

If you want the kick-assassin firepower that only a Fighter with 3 PP in Bow and 5 PP in a melee weapon can deliver; but also want abilities of a second class, then DC Fighter is your ONLY choice. (Otherwise, it's 2 PP max for you.)

If you want the max HP possible (126 HP at level 9), in a character destined for more than one class, then DC Fighter (with CON=18) is your ONLY choice.

If you want a Cleric that sports 4 PP in Sling, and can swing a wicked Mace at 3 or even 3.5 ApR (before buffs) while also tanking behind his shield, then DC Fighter is your ONLY choice.

Hope that helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[ister]

I'm playing a DC party right now. Bard, F[4]-T, R[7]-C, F[9]-Transmuter, F[10?]-D.

I almost always DC-ed in Baldur's Gate.

I'm a little disappointed in the F->T. He's no longer a great archer, and the backstab doesn't make up for it. Yes I DC-ed him early, but I can't stand working without a thief for so long. I really think that the MC F/T is better. And I agree with the previous posts, KF you didn't really want a F/M/T.

I'm beginning to believe that Druids are extremely powerful as spell casters, so I'm rethinking my opinion on that too. I'd rather have the Druid available for longer, and not worry so much about hit points. I think I really like the early DC for the druid over the F/D in order to get to higher levels a little quicker.

For the F/M I think the story is quite different. GM and 9 levels of hit points make this guy extremly nasty in tough fights, and as long as you have another spell caster you don't need the spell casting active early on. This is one DC that I really do like.

And I have tried the F/C and F-C. I think each has it's advantages.

However, I always be inclined to have one character that can get to GM in a weapon. It's just so handy.

[ 09-26-2005, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: ister ]

[krunchyfrogg]

Originally posted by NobleNick: If you want a Cleric that sports 4 PP in Sling, and can swing a wicked Mace at 3 or even 3.5 ApR (before buffs) while also tanking behind his shield, then DC Fighter is your ONLY choice.

I thought you could only get XXX in any ranged weapon maximum.

[Aerich]

That is correct. Nick is getting a bit carried away again. Only 3 PP for ranged weapons, 5 PP for melee weapons for singleclassed (or dual class) fighters. 2 for multiclass fighters and other warriors. I'm also fairly sure that weapons serving double duty as ranged and melee (dagger, throwing axe) get the bonus from PPs.

IMHO, you can get a viciously powerful "power" party with limited dual classing - 2 characters. I will never dual class a thief again, and I think the HP loss for a multi F/C or F/D compared to a dual class is negligable. It makes a lot of sense for a mage, though.

It's not such a bad thing to give up GM in a weapon in favour of variety. My last multi F/T had 2 PP in greatswords, dagger, hammer, bows, and crossbows. With the amount of great weapons available, it gives you the option of picking the best weapon for each situation.

Further, on high difficulty levels, a multiclass will eventually have a better chance to hit than even a dual F[13]/whatever. I'll take a lvl 18/21 F/T over a lvl 9/30 any day of the week.

@ ister - one thing you could try is to have two druids - one single class, and one multiclassed to fighter.

The bard is very powerful in the midgame (say, lvl 6-15), but loses a bit of steam thereafter. Don't overlook the Luck song. It's actually a better offensive song than War Chant, but WC beats it out for defensive purposes.

[ister]

Originally posted by Aerich: It's not such a bad thing to give up GM in a weapon in favour of variety. My last multi F/T had 2 PP in greatswords, dagger, hammer, bows, and crossbows. With the amount of great weapons available, it gives you the option of picking the best weapon for each situation.

Sorry but I can't buy this argument. By giving up GM for Mastery you lose 1/2.5 Apr, +2 to hit and +3 damage. The worse case I can think of is using a slashing weapon against a enemy with 50% damage resistance.

Mastery will give you 1.5 attacks with +1 to hit and +2 to damage. Say you have a 60% chance of hitting, with a weapon that does 1-8 damage, with a +2 damage bonus, and +4 damage from strength. The Master then gets 0.9 hits per round for 12.5 points per hit, or an average of 11.25 points of damage per round.

By contrast the Grand Master will get 2.5 attacks, with a 70% chance of hitting. Assume another weapon that does 1-8 damage with a +2 enchantment, and +4 from strength. The GM gets 1.75 hits per round for an average of 15.5 points per hit. In other words an average of 27.125 points of damage per round. Give the enemy 50% resistance (because you can't choose a weapon to get around the resistance) and the damage is still 13.56 per round, or 2 points more than the Master.

Give the Master a higher enchantment weapon and he's STILL behind. I do understand about horses for courses, but in this case the GM is the best horse for any course in the game.

One exception I can think of is for backstab, in which case the APr doesn't help much. Another argument for the F/T over the F-T.

@ ister - one thing you could try is to have two druids - one single class, and one multiclassed to fighter.

Nah, I don't think so. I'm finding druids are great as spell casters and that I have no need to use them in melee. So the obvious choice is to build a robust druid by dualling at level 3. Good with slings (for weak oponents) and can wear armour for tough opponents.