The Archer's Tragedy

[Jim]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Upgrading Impaler to a +4 enchantment is fine by me, but what mortifies me is that they allowed it to be thrown. Sometimes I wonder if they stopped to consider what they are doing to a weapon. Impaler was meant to be a bad-assed MELEE weapon. NONE, and I mean NONE of the other ranged weapons can even begin to compare to it. Oh well... the option to make it is up to the user, although I sincerely wish they remove the throwing ability in a future update of the Item Upgrade Mod.

Not only can it now be thrown, but they've given it a longbow rate of fire, for both Ranged *and* Melee attacks!!, i.e. 2 APR base which is still applied when the weapon is used in melee mode. This makes it some kind of super Belm. Hey, we might as well take the Staff of the Ram, and give it 5 APR base

It should not surprise many, but I for one, do not support the idea of the Fighter Archer. Why muscle into an area that is already occupied by the Ranger Archer? The Fighter Archer is superior to the Ranger Archer overall, and people will be hardpressed to choose the original over the mod version, especially when you consider that the Fighter Archer can be DUALED to another class besides the Cleric.

Hmm, I see your point here, but the Ranger Archer will always have the low level priest spells, which gives superior defence abilities to the RArcher (namely due to AoF and the Rangers level 20 casting level).

I've never agreed with the Ranger kits getting shafted when it comes to dual classing. A pure Ranger can dual class, but the Archer and Stalker (not sure about the Beastie Boy) cannot. This makes no sense, since *all* of the fighter kits *can* dual class. Not sure what BIS were thinking of when they placed these limitations on the ranger kits.

Each to his own I suppose.

They should at least compensate a bit by, 1) Fix the Ranger Archer so that his Kit Bonuses does not get nerfed after level 18 2) No Call Shot ability for the Fighter Archer 3) Fix the Ranger Archer so that he can grandmaster in Slings and Darts, and specialise in Daggers.

I have to agree with these suggestions.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Off-Topic: I suggest that we convert the +4 piercing damage from the Staff of the Ram +6 into an additional +4 crushing damage instead, so that it will apply to critical hits as well, and cease the constant harrassment from the Flail of the Ages +5's claims of superior damage. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

On a less serious note, I want the SotR to grant the user an dispellable Cloak of Fear when equipped! Anything that holds that big stick is going to command a lot of respect. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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Armor of Faith is good, but not so good that it will single-handedly counter all the advantages that the FArcher have over the RArcher. And honestly, if a RArcher is depending on his/her AoF to survive, something is seriously wrong with his/her fighting tactics. After all... RArchers are ranged attackers... speed is of greater tactical value.

New kits are fun and all, but I wish they had taken into consideration the other in-game kits.

[Rataxes]

For a solo Archer, the Stealth ability is a vital asset. I'd say it's almost as important to them as it is to thieves. Fighter Archers don't get Stealth, or at least they shouldn't so they're still inferior for soloists. Party archers is another matter though...

PS: Bloodbane kicks the Impaler's ass

[ 03-04-2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Jim: I've never agreed with the Ranger kits getting shafted when it comes to dual classing. A pure Ranger can dual class, but the Archer and Stalker (not sure about the Beastie Boy) cannot.

Beast Masters can indeed Dual, and I agree--I see no reason whatsoever to forbid Archers and Stalkers from Dualing. If there are to be any kit-based Dualing restrictions, it should be to lock out the Archer->Mage.

I agree with
1) Fix the Ranger Archer so that his Kit Bonuses does not get nerfed after level 18, and
3) Fix the Ranger Archer so that he can grandmaster in Slings and Darts, and specialise in Daggers,
but I see no need for
2) No Call Shot ability for the Fighter Archer.
Both Archers should have identical combat skills, with the Generic Archer's being slowed down just a tad, to compensate for the Ranger Archer's slower leveling, so that in terms of EXP, both come out just about the same.

The ability to Stealth is indeed quite useful, especially with Non-detection thrown into the mix. Add that and some nifty Druid spells like Doom and Entangle (the ranged attacker's best friend), and I think that gives a fair counterbalance to the Generic Archer's ability to put 2 stars in a melee weapon & Dual to a Thief.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Kensai->Thieves and Wizard Slayer->Thieves did NOT get Use Any Item?

[Khazraj]

Without UAI I reckon that Wizardslayer or Kensai/Thieves would...not exist?...

[SixOfSpades]

THE ARCHER'S SALVATION:

Better ammo. Kensai cannot use ammo, and therefore will never (barring the Kensai->Thief) be able to take advantage of any of these hypothetical toys:

Knockback Bolts: Strikes as a +2 weapon, target takes 1D6 damaged and is knocked back (very large creatures are immune).
Arrows of Eros: On each hit, target must Save vs. Wands or become Charmed for 1 turn. (Quiver of Sune a better name?)
Let's bring back the Arrows of Detonation! (In moderate quantities, of course.)
Arrows of Sloth: Each successful hit forces victim to Save vs. Death or Sleep for 2 rounds, creatures immune to Sleep will be Slowed. Bypasses Magic Resistance.
Sticky Bullets: Targets must Save vs. Spell with a +2 penalty or be Webbed for 1 round.
Improved Cloak of the Stars, involving the Crimson Dart, 10 Asp's Nests, 40 Darts of Wounding, 2 Star Sapphires, and a Star Diopside gem. The Cloak can now produce 20 +4 enchanted Darts per day, each hit causing 1 poison damage per second for 2 rounds (Save vs. Death for half duration).

[weimer]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Upgrading Impaler to a +4 enchantment is fine by me, but what mortifies me is that they allowed it to be thrown. Sometimes I wonder if they stopped to consider what they are doing to a weapon.

In fact, we do.

Impaler was meant

Meant? Presumably you know this based on some conversation with the game designers. Inferring intentionality here is tricky. However, even if you assume that the game designers really did want it to be this that or the other thing, I don't hold the game designers up as the gold standard -- I'm not sure where this "all spears are two-handed melee weapons" thing came from. I'd rather trust the lessons of history: the Greek Hoplites were quite successful using the spear one-handed in combination with a shield while the Vikings and the Zulus were both quite adept at throwing spears (and let's not even mention the atl-atl, shall we?).

The basic idea here is that in BG2 a 1d6 throwing spear is *strictly* inferior to a 1d6 throwing axe. The axe is one-handed, allowing for a shield ... and there are quite a few good ones (e.g. Harmony). The motivation for making throwing spears slightly faster was not based on their relative performance to bows but instead based on their relative performance to other ranged melee weapons (e.g., the firetooth dagger).

It should not surprise many, but I for one, do not support the idea of the Fighter Archer. Why muscle into an area that is already occupied by the Ranger Archer?

I don't believe in arbitrary kit and alignment restrictions. Why should only good-aligned people get to be archers? Basically, I'm more of a GURPS or 3E man at heart.

[Dundee Slaytern]

However, throwing spears were designed to be smaller( or shorter if you prefer) than their melee cousins. I can easily envision a person hurling a four-footer, but somehow I doubt that is the size of the Impaler.

Judging from the item design, the Impaler is a thick spear, and should easily be a seven-footer or more. This does not allow for graceful aerodynamics if you will.

As Bloodbane is a custom spear, and already designed to be a throwing spear, I can live with that. The Impaler however, was not designed with the intention for it to be thrown. If the game designers had wanted it to be a thrown weapon, they would have implemented it accordingly. As it is, it was designed as a Two-Handed Melee Weapon with some serious add-on damage.

The damage is reason enough for people to play with it in melee. If not for the Impaler, most players would not even bother to touch the Spears weapon category. Now the Item Upgrade Mod makes it even better, when it was already one of the best.

A simple upgrade of the enchantment would suffice already, just like how the CFury went from +3 to +5 with no additional modifiers. Doing the same for The Impaler should seriously be considered.

[weimer]

First, let me say that your argument has merit.

That being said, it's not really relevant to BG2. I can't really imagine "graceful aerodynamics" associated with someone hurling a three-foot axe about seven yards away and having it magically return to their hand (3 times a round!), hilt-first! But it happens in BG2. A normal longbow is usually about six feet tall -- often taller than the archer (especially if it's an elf!). I can't really imagine anyone fitting two or three of those "in their backpack" ... but it happens in BG2. A polearm is a formation weapon designed to break up charges or cavalary and is almost completely ineffective if you are the only one using one ... especially when the enemy gets inside your reach. I cannot imagine any "graceful" way in which you can hit someone two feet away from you with a blade that it as the opposite end of a ten foot pole you are holding. And yet it happens in BG2.

My point? Any argument "from physics" is somewhat out of place here. If you've got magically returning axes that you can find lying around, a magically returning spear is not a big stretch (especially since you had to go through all this extra effort to forge it).

Even with Normal Impaler, spears are a poor choice in SoA (and/or ToB) compared to, say, Scimitars or Two-Handers. The +10 damage looks impressive but it has all sorts of problems, especially for a two-handed weapon. To put it another way: it is my opinion that *even with* the unimproved Impaler, most players won't touch spears (especially discerning players who can decode the math).

Throwing Impaler is good. It's in the same general ballpark as Carso, Ages, Fury, Magi, Foebane, Firetooth, etc. It's not as good as Ages, Fury, Magi or Foebane in my opinion, actually. It's a strong weapon, but it's not the strongest. It's competitive. It gives you a reason to pick spears but does not make them the best choice.

[ 03-06-2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: weimer ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

However, one major advantage of a ranged weapon is just that. It is ranged. People who use ranged weapons( let's say that they are not soloing) are at an advantage because they are not facing most of the danger.

In game terms, it makes sense for a melee weapon to deal more damage than a ranged weapon, or at least keep the ranged damage within reasonable limits, least we create a similar monster to the Diablo2 Bowazon.

Whose ranged damage is so ridiculously overpowered that almost nothing can touch her.

By giving such a powerful ranged weapon to the player, whoever uses it, can literally blast opponents in 1-2 hits from afar. This is a crucial point. Yes. Flail of Ages +5 is technically one of the best if not the best weapon in the game, but one must remember that the person using it has to enter into the fray of frontline combat.

The weapon's power is balanced by the fact the user has to expose him/herself to a lot of danger in order to use it. Not so for the person using The Impaler. Protected by the party tanks, he/she can leisurely hurl The Impaler( with a base ApR of 2 no less) without worrying too much on what is going to hurt him/her.

What I am trying to say is that, even barring physics and all that real life stuff, The Upgraded Impaler is a tad overpowered for a ranged weapon, and is simply not fair to those who melee. Did I mention that The Upgraded Impaler deals more damage than most melee weapons? There has to be a balance, a compromise somewhere.