Imoen Same-Sex Romance

[Azred]

@Absynthe
Cosanguinity? What an interesting word!
Now that the idea is out, what will you do with it?

@Tancred
I suppose we'll have to give the Bible an 18+ rating, eh? [img]graemlins/blueblink.gif[/img]
[img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] Bad guys are cool? [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]
I highly doubt that Galadria was either the first, or the only, person to have the idea that Irenicus raped Imoen. Yes, Irenicus taints everything he touches; that is his nature and what makes him as evil as he is.

@Tanoch Thas'ala
Just because someone is male doesn't mean they cannot understand rape.

Just like many successful writers, I'm sure that Galadria did not choose the idea; rather, the idea chose her.

[Tancred]

Right, forget about the 'I'm not replying, don't reply to me' thing, that's gone. It's not going to work if I am actually replied to.

Damn right bad guys are cool, sir! Ask many actors, and they'll tell you there's nothing like donning the 'black hat' and being a madman for a while. Many stories are made by their villains; the Sheriff of Nottingham, Mordred, Saruman, Herod... the list of fascinating and brilliant villain characters that have darkened the pages of fiction and beyond goes on. Irenicus, with his refreshing indomitability and total focus, is one of these (let's face it; what IS BG2 without him?). There are plenty of BG2 gamers who find using an Evil PC good fun too, so I daresay they'd agree with me.

As for the age rating thing, that was more of a lighthearted quip; but as for the Bible, I'm amazed they still let kids read it. (shrug)

As for the comment on writers, I would like to add that even Tolkien rewrote some pretty pivoal parts of Lord of the Rings because he thought the general public would be outraged. His original ending had Gollum committing suicide with the Ring, ending Sauron's realm with an act of self-sacrifice; but he had to take into account having a suicide save the day is very unchristian.

As for Galadria, she may not be the first to have the idea. But she's the first I've seen who wants others to know it too, and in my mind that's where she crossed a line. As I said, she didn't need to put that in. I can't imagine her wanting to put that in; who would? So, why?

In fact, yes; I'll ask that question outright. Galadria, why are you having Irenicus rape Imoen?

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Tancred ]

[Tancred]

quote:

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Originally posted by Azred:
As I am sure you well know, those who push the boundaries are persecuted. I agree with you about Jon's motivations and actions.

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Which boundaries? Boundaries of taste? Boundaries of morality? Boundaries of decency? Boundaries of law? Boundaries like 'thou shalt not kill', perhaps? Boundaries like the terms of international peace treaties? And since when is disagreeing with someone on a public discussion forum 'persecution'? If we start hurling bricks through windows and demanding Galadria burned at the stake, then, sir, you may accuse us of that, but until then this is heated debate, nothing more. What you say is petty sound-byte and sophistry.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Azred:
[QB]@Absynthe
Cosanguinity? What an interesting word!
Now that the idea is out, what will you do with it?

Me? *looks about, a bit panicky* Nothing, nothing at all. P'raps Miss Galadria will.
As for my vocabulary, I have to fall back on Tolkien; "His mind is like a lumber-room, thing wanted always buried"

edit: Hey Azred, you turned me all green! Bad JuJu!

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Absynthe ]

[Whailor]

Heh, it's amusing to read the comments from Tanoch Thas'ala. Like "If there is any such men" or "It is very amusing to me to read that what appear to be males posting in this particular thread are posting about rape when they have no idea what Rape really is other than what they see in the news". How typical - if someone is a male, then they obviously have no idea about your 'female fragile world' and it's issues, that when someone is a male then they are immediately afar from the life, stumbling in the dark like children, being totally clueless about all this stuff. You're probably the person who's view on males then is like "they're all pigs, they're the cause of all the bad, they're totally clueless about anything"? And you being a female makes you understand everything so well and judge everyone else because of that? Make you assume right away that only you and you have any clues about anything because of that, and all what these "males" are posting is some 'speculation and clueless guesses from their side'? Let me summon all what I think about these claims of yours with a single, well understandable, easy word: BLAAAH!

English is not my native language, so I don't know all these fancy words in english, what I would like to use perhaps. So because of that my posts may lack some eloquent thoughts or are not formed as well, to please and make these more understandable to everyone. It doesn't mean that I don't know what I say. I agree in this topic with Gabriel and Tancred. Tancred put my thoughts into words quite well. There is saying that everyone will see things as they WANT to see them. In my eyes, there are significally more ways to 'break' someone's spirit, excluding the rape. There was significally more ways to 'use' someone, excluding the rape. In my eyes I never saw that the dryads were raped by Irenicus, as is posted here - there are much more different ways Irenicus could have used them. Same with Imoen, to break her spirit. These never occured to me, not because I am a 'male' and have so 'narrow view'. On the contrary - because I am a male, maybe, I saw actually much more possible ways to use someone or torture, without raping them. It looks like it's the female 'narrow' point of view actually, which immediately defaults the the point that "when a male wants to (ab)use a woman, he will always rape her". That Irenicus wants to break Imoen's spirit, which immediately means that he raped her. That Irenicus wanted the dryads to inspire the love so he immediately raped them. That he created two dozens of clones to rape them. That's outright silly and a very narrow point of view. You see what you WANT to see. There is no movie sequence in the game where Irenicus puts his arm around Imoen. There is no such animation even in the game. Irenicus has only 3 animations, literally - stand, walk, cast spells. So now suddenly, because the animations make the chars stand in a weird way, and due to some occasional sprite overlapping, it is assumed that Irenicus held his arm around Imoen? He didn't. There is no such animation, but again, people see what they WANT to see.

I also agree with Tancred that this is a game. Fantasy game. People play it to escape from the real life a bit, to be a hero or heroine (hmm, that sounds like a drug.. what's the better word?). Also a small reason is to spend some time, but it's a small reason and secondary - there are easier, cheaper and much more effective ways to spend some time. So I just cannot understand, why is still needed to drag all the real life filth into the game as well? Isn't there enough of it in the real life, that there should be more of it in the game? So now people want to have love between women in the game.. OK, make this script. Soon someone probably wants to have the male-to-male romance as well. What, Anoment with Korgan then? Wonder what ideas will be next. I mean there already are romances between male main char and NPC female chars, main female char and NPC male chars (I admit though that the only romance option here isn't that good, someone should really work perhaps on Valygar romance as it was intended, maybe some additional as well). So soon we will have the romance between family members? Also between female chars. What's left then? Love between male chars too, and we will have the game just as the real world, with all the stuff we have here and all the stuff we perhaps try to escape from, when starting to play the game.

DISCLAIMER: As I have stated though few times, these are my opinions. You don't have to agree to these, as you certainly have your own. I see that there are few who share my point of vew, and there are few who share your point of view, Galadria. And of course there are people with whom we all have the same point of view. Perfectly natural. You want to make this script, and I am sure that all this hard work will pay off and the script will be made. Definately many will try it out too, why not. I respect the effort you and your friend put into it, I respect any work well done. The fact that I disagree on many points doesn't mean that would want to hinder the "project" as such - no. As I said, I respect the work as such and also the opinions of others. The fact that I will not play it, as in my eyes it "doesn't fit into BG fantasy world" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. That's the good thing with the add-on's: you can download them and play, and you also may not. And while I will not use that script, I will give any technical advise when I can or know.

And Tanoch Thas'ala - please don't start here the "males don't have a clue about anything" thing - you're totally off regarding this, as off as anyone can ever be and remarks like this will simply get ignored eventually. These are amusing to read, but the fun will run out eventually.

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Whailor ]

[Galadria]

Hmmm. Where to start. Ok, rank, first.
Memnoch, I know that you are watching this thread. Thanks for the "thumbs up", and I hope that you know that I would never flame anyone. I started this thread to get comments, and , believe me, I've gotten them.
Tancred, I'll answer you because You did touch my heart about the need to escape, and because I have always enjoyed your posts. Dear, in the first place, this was not my idea, it was Columbus', but I shall not hide behind that, because I agree with it. I have always thought of Irenicus as a sexual predator and of Imoen as his victim, since the first time that I played the game. I really cannot understand the dryads without thinking of that. Also, I cannot account for the sheer "shatteredness" of poor Imoen without thinking that he did something to her besides cast Magic Missle at her or some such. Surely, I can see a same-sex romance as not including violence (Lord knows that I see them every week), but Imoen is a special case. She turns to Lesbianism and her sister because her ability to relate to others, and especially men, is forever shattered by her torments under the hands (!) of the unspeakable Irenicus. I actually have seen that happen in RL. As for your need to escape, I feel it too, but this game (BGII) seems determined to give us a series of blows to the solar plexus. I mean, think of the number of times that it toys with (My at least) emotions, when I should like it to take a more pleasant course. Starting off with Minsc's revalation of Dynaheir's murder, then Khalid's, even Ajantis'. Why was it necessary for Imoen to be kidnapped and tortured at all? The game would follow a similar course if she was not. I have actually read an interview with one of the game's designers when he said that Imoen was the one that they picked to be captured and tortured because it would "upset" the most players. That's not the only place, either. My husband was VERY upset when Viconia was "vampirised" and Bodhi taunted him with renaming her "Fetch." Why did they do that? To get under the player's skin. So, to end all this, I imagined myself as comforting poor Immy and her overreacting to it, long before Columbus came up with his script. So, you see, it was an escape for me, too. Sorry if it upset you, but that's the way I understand it.

[Memnoch]

quote:

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Originally posted by Galadria:
Hmmm. Where to start. Ok, rank, first.
Memnoch, I know that you are watching this thread. Thanks for the "thumbs up", and I hope that you know that I would never flame anyone. I started this thread to get comments, and , believe me, I've gotten them.

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I know that, and I trust you. I'm here because nobody should get flamed for their opinion - yourself or anyone else - whether they agree with you or not. We won't be repressing ANYONE's opinion here - as long as they give it in a civil and tactful manner.

I'll be honest and say that I'm a bit uncomfortable with frank discussion of sexual violence in a PG-rated forum, but I'm sure you can understand why, from where I'm standing. I'm happy for you guys to continue the discussion as long as you continue to do so in a mature fashion (as you have) and spare us some of the gory details that we don't need to know about. Young people visit this forum - please be considerate with them.

I'll butt out now and leave you all to it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Memnoch]

quote:

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Originally posted by Azred:
Lucifer, please! Let us not demean 1) this forum, 2) Galadria's thread, or 3) yourself by becoming upset to the point of foul language. Yes, sometimes people are irritating, but that is just life; if certain people choose not to understand the ideas behind the Imoen Same-Sex Romance and choose not to 1) support it or 2) offer constructive criticism then that is their problem.

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Well said. [img]smile.gif[/img]

quote:

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Let's all save Memnoch the trouble and police ourselves, yes?

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It's no trouble, but I like how you think. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Galadria, for what it's worth, I think that part of the appeal of this game is the very depth of the story. The developers obviously took great pains to work out a storyline that wasn't the usual simplistic fare; they wanted to involve and sometimes shock the players. I think that your direction is great, some of the proof of which is in the strength of the reactions you're receiving, both pro and con. Keep it up.

[Memnoch]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tanoch Thas'ala:

Memnoch, I re-read my post and I'm not sure where you thought I was flaming. However, I again want to apologize, it is not my intent to flame anyone, just carry on a discussion..

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No worries. Just try not to get personal (yawning at other people's opinions, etc). I'm just preempting here as I think you're all doing well with sensitive subject matter and I'd hate for it to go downhill.