Imoen Same-Sex Romance - Page 9

Galadria · 02-20-2002, 05:51 PM

Absynthe, I'm sure not gonna spoil it for you, but in ToB, with the Ascension mod, your questions will be answered. It's nice to know, everybody, that our little idea has provoked so much debate. Also glad to know that Imoen-devotion is so rife.

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Galadria ]

02-20-2002, 06:11 PM

Excellent! Thanks for not giving it away.
I not only like Imoen's character, I also really like Jaheira. I especially enjoyed some of her dialogue from BG I; Her "Yes, oh omnipresent authority figure?" quite cracked me up, it did. Actually, I'm just generally pleased at the female characters in the BG series, as they have more depth and varied personalities than in many other games. I'm still fervently hoping that more will be forthcoming.

Tancred · 02-20-2002, 06:20 PM

Well, if you want real, cast-iron proof that there *are* depths that Irenicus will not sink to, I offer this; he is a villain in a computer game that is rated for users of age 15+ by the European Leisure Software Publisher's Association. By their rating system, if the game had made reference to sexual violence it would have got an 18+ rating. QED.

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Tancred ]

Galadria · 02-20-2002, 06:22 PM

Oh, come on, Tancred. There are many hints of sexual violence in the game, like the dryads I referred to above. What are they but sex-slaves? He raped them every time he made out with them.

02-20-2002, 06:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tancred:
Well, if you want real, cast-iron proof that there *are* depths that Irenicus will not sink to, I offer this; he is a villain in a computer game that is rated for users of age 15+ by the European Leisure Software Publisher's Association. By their rating system, if the game had made reference to sexual violence it would have got an 18+ rating. QED.

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Tancred ]

Damn you, I'm laughing so hard my boss caught me on the 'net! For shame, bringing reality into this!

Tanoch Thas'ala · 02-20-2002, 06:32 PM

It is very amusing to me to read that what appear to be males posting in this particular thread are posting about rape when they have no idea what Rape really is other than what they see in the news.

Rape is not sex. Rape has nothing whatsoever to do with sex. Rape is not just intercoruse. Rape is not just pushing an unwilling person down and forcing yourself onto/into them.

Rape, by definition, and including sexual intercourse, is "Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice".

Rape is control. Rape is violation.

Jon Irinicus would rape Imoen becuase she is not who he wants. The PC is. As some one stated above, once he's done with Imoen she'll more than likely be give to Bhodi or another underling. Irinicus knows who the power player is, hence his abducting of Imoen and not one of the other Bhaal-Spawn's "loved" ones... No one is suggesting that Jon would gain any pleasure in it...and what kills me is you guys saying that Jon would do anything becuase he is ultimate evil, yet he would stop at raping some one. Honor among thieves, I guess?

Attalus · 02-20-2002, 06:47 PM

As an undoubted male, and having had many, many conversations with the Lady Galadria about this, let me just say that I agree that it is quite possible that Irenicus raped Imoen. The brute was, IMHO, doing everything that he could think of to loosen her hold on life. This could include rape of any kind. As a physician, I shall bring "grim relity" into this by pointing out that rape, and its psychological consequences, do not have to involve "the act." I also know that Galadria has been involved for many years in counseling of rape victims, and that she sees many of those characteristics in Imoen, like her pathetic comment, "I don't feel like I really fit in with the people in the city anymore." This is psychological alienation, and it is not often seen in people who have just been physiclly tortured. Also, I would reiterate her statement that rape is a crime of power and control, just what Imoen was being subjected to. I shall also mention the Bosnian situation, which I will merely allude to, as I am sure that you know what I am writing about. Now, I am sure that Memnoch will be getting after me, but I really feel that statements are being made without much knowledge.

Tancred · 02-20-2002, 06:53 PM

Oh, for the love of God... I've danced around it, but that was a stupid idea from the start; I'm going to make it plain. I don't care what rape is, I don't care how 'evil' everybody thinks Irenicus is, or what he is capable of. I was the first to offer criti - no, not criticism, just a friendly reminder to keep the bad guy as cool as he always was, and Galadria just mentions, almost as an afterthought, that he rapes Imoen while she is in his power.
I don't know whether this makes me a prude, or old-fashioned, or what;I have no qualms about the concept of a same-sex romance, but I do have very serious objections about the introduction of rape into the equation. To hell whether Irenicus did do it or not; it's you, Galadria, you who have formed the idea that he could, and you who has made him do so. Your actions make the world of Baldur's Gate a bit as unpleasant and disturbed as the world we all live in. I love the concept of high fantasy, because it's a realm within my mind; a wold of heroism, and brave deeds, and the darkest of plots, and the blackest of hearts, but it's innocent in an arthurian, classical way that I can only dream about; and it's where I go to forget the cares of the day. Just the mere suggestion that Irenicus - the old foe we have all squared off against, and that we all know so well - could have done something so unpleasantly REAL-LIFE as to rape someone taints everything irredemably, for me if not for anyone else. I ask you this; was there no other way to write a single-sex romance? Were you determined to include the suggestion of rape? Did you not think it would offend anyone? I know that whatever I say, whatever anyone says, it's ultimately up to you what you create, and I cannot stop or change any of it by my will alone; but I will not let you do so without some very serious objections from my quarter. You all know, at least, how one person stands.

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Tancred ]

Gabriel · 02-20-2002, 07:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Lucifer Lord of demons:
Gabriel you are PISSING ME OFF!!!!
You are entiteled to your opinion as Galadria is to hers. If you don't like the idea of this romance(and i think you don't) then stop posting here. Avoid the subject altogether and stop saying he doesn't rape her because you ARE NOT sure. O.K!!! Now Could you just stop saying stuff as though you are sure of everything O.K?

(Sorry Memnoch if you think i'm flaming but i just don't Give a FU*% (don't read the but i just...))

Lufcifer IF you bothered to pay attention I never once said i was against the ideal of him rapping her I just couldn't understand what the motive behind it was! And I still fail to see any I might add.
As for the ideal of a romace with her it is after all the classic romance situation what with her being you child hood friend, I supose the lesbian ideal (I can't help but notice no one else is using this word) is a nice twist but frankly it every where.
If to saw by post before my last you see I said

quote:
Anyway it your your script and I however good it sound I think I'll wait to one that make more sense to me comes out

And was leaving the thread I only return due to Azred claim that I did not understand Jon and how depraived he was. But I know how depraived he I played the game. He is cold, emotionless logical evil not passinate or cruel. He doesn't ever desplay these signs.
I undersatnd that he is not above rape if it fills his perpose but couldn't see how it would. Nor why he would do it himself, he is cold enough to leave her to his minions as enterment. So Azerd dissmial of by ideal say I just didn't understand him piss me off a bit.
When Galadria finishes it and I ever desire to use it I'll rewrite the bits I find at the lack of a better term wrong to me.

Memnoch · 02-20-2002, 09:11 PM

Lucifer, calm down. If Gabriel's opinion is pissing you off, then ignore him. He certainly wasn't shouting or having a go at Galadria. Do you shout at people whose opinion you disagree with in real life? Probably not, unless you enjoy getting into fistfights. Here should be no different. Argue the point, not the person.

Galadria, you probably realise that by asking for people's opinions you will receive both positive and negative ones, so be prepared for people to disagree with you. You've handled yourself well so far. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] But you (or anyone who agrees or disagrees with you as long as they're being civil) should NOT have to put up with verbal abuse - and I'll be checking to make sure that doesn't happen.

Also, the topic of rape is somewhat a sensitive topic, so PLEASE be conscious of the fact that this is a PG-rated forum. I know the game is rated 15+, but the ages of people who visit this forum (and play the game) range from 8 to 80 years old. I'd rather you didn't get into the gory details if they don't add value to the discussion. In other words, please be TACTFUL in your discussions. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

02-20-2002, 05:51 PM	#81
Galadria 20th Level Warrior Join Date: November 3, 2001 Location: Texas Age: 55 Posts: 2,830	Absynthe, I'm sure not gonna spoil it for you, but in ToB, with the Ascension mod, your questions will be answered. It's nice to know, everybody, that our little idea has provoked so much debate. Also glad to know that Imoen-devotion is so rife. [ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Galadria ] __________________ Lady Galadria,Goddess\' Equal of the O.R.T.; [img]\"http://havak.db-forge.com/portraits/bitmaps/wlf180L.bmp\" alt=\" - \" /><br />\"Romance at short notice was her specialty.\" - Saki <br />Founder of the IW Branch of the Anti-Anomen Society

02-20-2002, 06:20 PM	#83
Tancred White Dragon Join Date: April 1, 2001 Location: UK Age: 45 Posts: 1,893	Well, if you want real, cast-iron proof that there are depths that Irenicus will not sink to, I offer this; he is a villain in a computer game that is rated for users of age 15+ by the European Leisure Software Publisher's Association. By their rating system, if the game had made reference to sexual violence it would have got an 18+ rating. QED. [ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Tancred ] __________________ \"HELP! I\'ve superglued myself to a flaming bowling ball!\"

02-20-2002, 06:22 PM	#84
Galadria 20th Level Warrior Join Date: November 3, 2001 Location: Texas Age: 55 Posts: 2,830	Oh, come on, Tancred. There are many hints of sexual violence in the game, like the dryads I referred to above. What are they but sex-slaves? He raped them every time he made out with them. __________________ Lady Galadria,Goddess\' Equal of the O.R.T.; [img]\"http://havak.db-forge.com/portraits/bitmaps/wlf180L.bmp\" alt=\" - \" /><br />\"Romance at short notice was her specialty.\" - Saki <br />Founder of the IW Branch of the Anti-Anomen Society

02-20-2002, 06:24 PM	#85
Absynthe Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Tancred: Well, if you want real, cast-iron proof that there are depths that Irenicus will not sink to, I offer this; he is a villain in a computer game that is rated for users of age 15+ by the European Leisure Software Publisher's Association. By their rating system, if the game had made reference to sexual violence it would have got an 18+ rating. QED. [ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Tancred ] Damn you, I'm laughing so hard my boss caught me on the 'net! For shame, bringing reality into this!

02-20-2002, 06:47 PM	#87
Attalus Symbol of Bane Join Date: November 26, 2001 Location: Texas Age: 76 Posts: 8,167	As an undoubted male, and having had many, many conversations with the Lady Galadria about this, let me just say that I agree that it is quite possible that Irenicus raped Imoen. The brute was, IMHO, doing everything that he could think of to loosen her hold on life. This could include rape of any kind. As a physician, I shall bring "grim relity" into this by pointing out that rape, and its psychological consequences, do not have to involve "the act." I also know that Galadria has been involved for many years in counseling of rape victims, and that she sees many of those characteristics in Imoen, like her pathetic comment, "I don't feel like I really fit in with the people in the city anymore." This is psychological alienation, and it is not often seen in people who have just been physiclly tortured. Also, I would reiterate her statement that rape is a crime of power and control, just what Imoen was being subjected to. I shall also mention the Bosnian situation, which I will merely allude to, as I am sure that you know what I am writing about. Now, I am sure that Memnoch will be getting after me, but I really feel that statements are being made without much knowledge. __________________ Even Heroes sometimes fail...

02-20-2002, 06:11 PM	#82
Absynthe Guest Posts: n/a	Excellent! Thanks for not giving it away. I not only like Imoen's character, I also really like Jaheira. I especially enjoyed some of her dialogue from BG I; Her "Yes, oh omnipresent authority figure?" quite cracked me up, it did. Actually, I'm just generally pleased at the female characters in the BG series, as they have more depth and varied personalities than in many other games. I'm still fervently hoping that more will be forthcoming.

02-20-2002, 06:32 PM	#86
Tanoch Thas'ala Banned User Join Date: February 14, 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 336	It is very amusing to me to read that what appear to be males posting in this particular thread are posting about rape when they have no idea what Rape really is other than what they see in the news. Rape is not sex. Rape has nothing whatsoever to do with sex. Rape is not just intercoruse. Rape is not just pushing an unwilling person down and forcing yourself onto/into them. Rape, by definition, and including sexual intercourse, is "Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice". Rape is control. Rape is violation. Jon Irinicus would rape Imoen becuase she is not who he wants. The PC is. As some one stated above, once he's done with Imoen she'll more than likely be give to Bhodi or another underling. Irinicus knows who the power player is, hence his abducting of Imoen and not one of the other Bhaal-Spawn's "loved" ones... No one is suggesting that Jon would gain any pleasure in it...and what kills me is you guys saying that Jon would do anything becuase he is ultimate evil, yet he would stop at raping some one. Honor among thieves, I guess?

02-20-2002, 06:53 PM	#88
Tancred White Dragon Join Date: April 1, 2001 Location: UK Age: 45 Posts: 1,893	Oh, for the love of God... I've danced around it, but that was a stupid idea from the start; I'm going to make it plain. I don't care what rape is, I don't care how 'evil' everybody thinks Irenicus is, or what he is capable of. I was the first to offer criti - no, not criticism, just a friendly reminder to keep the bad guy as cool as he always was, and Galadria just mentions, almost as an afterthought, that he rapes Imoen while she is in his power. I don't know whether this makes me a prude, or old-fashioned, or what;I have no qualms about the concept of a same-sex romance, but I do have very serious objections about the introduction of rape into the equation. To hell whether Irenicus did do it or not; it's you, Galadria, you who have formed the idea that he could, and you who has made him do so. Your actions make the world of Baldur's Gate a bit as unpleasant and disturbed as the world we all live in. I love the concept of high fantasy, because it's a realm within my mind; a wold of heroism, and brave deeds, and the darkest of plots, and the blackest of hearts, but it's innocent in an arthurian, classical way that I can only dream about; and it's where I go to forget the cares of the day. Just the mere suggestion that Irenicus - the old foe we have all squared off against, and that we all know so well - could have done something so unpleasantly REAL-LIFE as to rape someone taints everything irredemably, for me if not for anyone else. I ask you this; was there no other way to write a single-sex romance? Were you determined to include the suggestion of rape? Did you not think it would offend anyone? I know that whatever I say, whatever anyone says, it's ultimately up to you what you create, and I cannot stop or change any of it by my will alone; but I will not let you do so without some very serious objections from my quarter. You all know, at least, how one person stands. [ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Tancred ] __________________ \"HELP! I\'ve superglued myself to a flaming bowling ball!\"

02-20-2002, 07:21 PM	#89
Gabriel Emerald Dragon Join Date: March 4, 2001 Location: England Age: 42 Posts: 920	quote: Originally posted by Lucifer Lord of demons: Gabriel you are PISSING ME OFF!!!! You are entiteled to your opinion as Galadria is to hers. If you don't like the idea of this romance(and i think you don't) then stop posting here. Avoid the subject altogether and stop saying he doesn't rape her because you ARE NOT sure. O.K!!! Now Could you just stop saying stuff as though you are sure of everything O.K? (Sorry Memnoch if you think i'm flaming but i just don't Give a FU*% (don't read the but i just...)) Lufcifer IF you bothered to pay attention I never once said i was against the ideal of him rapping her I just couldn't understand what the motive behind it was! And I still fail to see any I might add. As for the ideal of a romace with her it is after all the classic romance situation what with her being you child hood friend, I supose the lesbian ideal (I can't help but notice no one else is using this word) is a nice twist but frankly it every where. If to saw by post before my last you see I said quote: Anyway it your your script and I however good it sound I think I'll wait to one that make more sense to me comes out And was leaving the thread I only return due to Azred claim that I did not understand Jon and how depraived he was. But I know how depraived he I played the game. He is cold, emotionless logical evil not passinate or cruel. He doesn't ever desplay these signs. I undersatnd that he is not above rape if it fills his perpose but couldn't see how it would. Nor why he would do it himself, he is cold enough to leave her to his minions as enterment. So Azerd dissmial of by ideal say I just didn't understand him piss me off a bit. When Galadria finishes it and I ever desire to use it I'll rewrite the bits I find at the lack of a better term wrong to me.

02-20-2002, 09:11 PM	#90
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	Lucifer, calm down. If Gabriel's opinion is pissing you off, then ignore him. He certainly wasn't shouting or having a go at Galadria. Do you shout at people whose opinion you disagree with in real life? Probably not, unless you enjoy getting into fistfights. Here should be no different. Argue the point, not the person. Galadria, you probably realise that by asking for people's opinions you will receive both positive and negative ones, so be prepared for people to disagree with you. You've handled yourself well so far. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] But you (or anyone who agrees or disagrees with you as long as they're being civil) should NOT have to put up with verbal abuse - and I'll be checking to make sure that doesn't happen. Also, the topic of rape is somewhat a sensitive topic, so PLEASE be conscious of the fact that this is a PG-rated forum. I know the game is rated 15+, but the ages of people who visit this forum (and play the game) range from 8 to 80 years old. I'd rather you didn't get into the gory details if they don't add value to the discussion. In other words, please be TACTFUL in your discussions. [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ] __________________

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