Clerics just as powerful as mages - Page 4

Dundee Slaytern · 12-11-2001, 10:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
Regarding invisibility: that's what True Seeing is for.

Non-Detection. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Besides, I do not even really need to do all this. One Spell Trigger and one Chain Contingency and bye-bye Cleric.

Dundee Slaytern · 12-11-2001, 10:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
How will a Mage hold together a six person party without a Cleric?

Who's talking about parties now? Stick to the debate at hand, which is to give reasons why you think either a Mage or a Cleric is more powerful. Let's not bring the Monks and Barbarians into this picture, unless you are trying to say that Clerics are only for parties?

Yggdrasil · 12-11-2001, 10:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:

Who's talking about parties now? Stick to the debate at hand, which is to give reasons why you think either a Mage or a Cleric is more powerful. Let's not bring the Monks and Barbarians into this picture, unless you are trying to say that Clerics are only for parties?

Being "powerful" is not limited to soloing through the game with spell triggers casting magical nukes. That is simplistic. If a Mage and a Cleric face off against each other in some arena, then the Mage would probably win, if that makes you happy. But a Cleric can maintain a party and a Mage can't...because the Priest's abilities are primarily defensive and more than a few are for buffing up the party. So if you exclude the party, you exclude by necessity some degree of the Cleric's power. And NO, that does not mean that Clerics are only for parties. Finis.

Dundee Slaytern · 12-11-2001, 11:01 AM

So we agree then, that Clerics excel in helping others become even more powerful( like Mages

), that his/her forte is not brute offensive, but passive offensive.

While you may think what Mage/Sorcerers can do is 'simplistic', do bear in mind that it does get the job done, and that is what matters.

Oh, and regarding parties, since you want to talk about it, ever consider that the rest of the party can just sit back, relax and sip some tea while the Mage/Sorcerer does all the dirty work? Sure, they can chip in now and then whenever there is Drow about, but a Mage/Sorcerer is all about power, Clerics help add to that power.

Worm · 12-11-2001, 11:18 AM

Necromancers should have healing spells. What do clouds of noxious gas have to do with the magical study for death? I always hated that!
Clerics are good, they have restoration spells that cure the entire party get some great weapons can wear armor but my favorite thing was ... energy disks. Mages get energy disk also so that means both classes rule because energy disks rule.

ahhhh, You guys aren't factoring in equipment and such. A halfling cleric would disrupt the spells with his sling and chances are kill you considering he had high level equipment and that seems how the conversation is going as if each characters where high levels. Sure the mage could cast improved mantle ... then the halfling could cast something else. It is all circumstance! It depends on who gets on that first stupid little shield that makes them totally invulnerable the halfing might intterupt the spell the mage might get the shield up.

Contingencies are unfair the only times they are used when you die reload and equip them for a hard battle or when you read in a Walk-thru that Dracos is tough. Contingencies were not designed for a reload button. This argument has no clear winner because each of your classes are support classes they function better in parties than alone there is no SOLO class. Sure I could have soloed WW2 had I a reload button I mean after gaining so much insight into the strategies after dying a million times sure I'd probably win WW2.

toriuxik · 12-11-2001, 01:20 PM

Non detection has no effect upon True Sight.

While you are busy casting protection from magical weapons, the cleric simply summons a few bears to smack to crap out of you. Or, they can use other spells like Bolt of Glory (or whatever its called). If the cleric certain equipment, they are going to be awful to try and kill for a mage.

Human Skin armour, Ring of Gax x2, Seldarine necklace thingy, Flail of the Ages, Cloak of Balduran... Just that and you get 80% magic resistance. Mages can't field all that equipment. In the time you use your contingencies and triggers/sequencers, the cleric has already beaten the crap out of you. They could also cast Miscast magic while your busy sequencing them. Oh no! No more spells. Besides, you can't have your mage already memorizing sequencers, contingencies, sequencers if cleric can't put into place HIS spells (summonings, protection from evil, gates, spell shields ect). You can't give one an unfair advantage like that and expect an even fight. Oh, and the cleric could just read a scroll of Antimagic.... Looks like all that armour and weapon power just might come in handy!

Dundee Slaytern · 12-11-2001, 01:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by toriuxik:
Non detection has no effect upon True Sight.

Oh yes it does. There is a reason why people love the Cloak of Non-Detection. It renders True Sight useless.

While you are busy casting protection from magical weapons, the cleric simply summons a few bears to smack to crap out of you. Or, they can use other spells like Bolt of Glory (or whatever its called).

Protection from Magical Weapons nerf the attacks of Bears too. Bolt of Glory takes a very long time to cast.

If the cleric certain equipment, they are going to be awful to try and kill for a mage.
Human Skin armour, Ring of Gax x2, Seldarine necklace thingy, Flail of the Ages, Cloak of Balduran... Just that and you get 80% magic resistance. Mages can't field all that equipment.

Mages have Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power and the Staff of Magi. Your point being?

In the time you use your contingencies and triggers/sequencers, the cleric has already beaten the crap out of you. They could also cast Miscast magic while your busy sequencing them. Oh no! No more spells. Besides, you can't have your mage already memorizing sequencers, contingencies, sequencers if cleric can't put into place HIS spells (summonings, protection from evil, gates, spell shields ect). You can't give one an unfair advantage like that and expect an even fight. Oh, and the cleric could just read a scroll of Antimagic.... Looks like all that armour and weapon power just might come in handy!

Therein lies the problem. Clerics cannot prepare spells before the battle. A Mage can, and this enables him to end the battle quickly and decisively. What is a Cleric going to do against a Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo? I only need a split second to cast this combo, faster than a blink of an eye.

Worm · 12-11-2001, 01:55 PM

BUT STILL! If a cleric has 80 magic resistence he could just walk to the mage and pound his face in!

Dundee Slaytern · 12-11-2001, 01:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Worm:
BUT STILL! If a cleric has 80 magic resistence he could just walk to the mage and pound his face in!

Refer to the first page of this thread. The Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo is explained in better detail. Ah heck, I will just repeat myself.

Spell Trigger = 3 Lower Resistances

Chain Contingency = 3 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings

Your Cleric will not be pounding, your Cleric will become a desiccated corpse on the ground.

Sir ReGiN · 12-11-2001, 02:08 PM

Don't be too hard on them, dundee

12-11-2001, 10:23 AM	#31
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	quote: Originally posted by Yggdrasil: Regarding invisibility: that's what True Seeing is for. Non-Detection. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Besides, I do not even really need to do all this. One Spell Trigger and one Chain Contingency and bye-bye Cleric.

12-11-2001, 10:27 AM	#32
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	quote: Originally posted by Yggdrasil: How will a Mage hold together a six person party without a Cleric? Who's talking about parties now? Stick to the debate at hand, which is to give reasons why you think either a Mage or a Cleric is more powerful. Let's not bring the Monks and Barbarians into this picture, unless you are trying to say that Clerics are only for parties?

12-11-2001, 10:49 AM	#33
Yggdrasil Dungeon Master Join Date: November 26, 2001 Location: Home Posts: 94	quote: Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Who's talking about parties now? Stick to the debate at hand, which is to give reasons why you think either a Mage or a Cleric is more powerful. Let's not bring the Monks and Barbarians into this picture, unless you are trying to say that Clerics are only for parties? Being "powerful" is not limited to soloing through the game with spell triggers casting magical nukes. That is simplistic. If a Mage and a Cleric face off against each other in some arena, then the Mage would probably win, if that makes you happy. But a Cleric can maintain a party and a Mage can't...because the Priest's abilities are primarily defensive and more than a few are for buffing up the party. So if you exclude the party, you exclude by necessity some degree of the Cleric's power. And NO, that does not mean that Clerics are only for parties. Finis.

12-11-2001, 01:52 PM	#37
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	quote: Originally posted by toriuxik: Non detection has no effect upon True Sight. Oh yes it does. There is a reason why people love the Cloak of Non-Detection. It renders True Sight useless. While you are busy casting protection from magical weapons, the cleric simply summons a few bears to smack to crap out of you. Or, they can use other spells like Bolt of Glory (or whatever its called). Protection from Magical Weapons nerf the attacks of Bears too. Bolt of Glory takes a very long time to cast. If the cleric certain equipment, they are going to be awful to try and kill for a mage. Human Skin armour, Ring of Gax x2, Seldarine necklace thingy, Flail of the Ages, Cloak of Balduran... Just that and you get 80% magic resistance. Mages can't field all that equipment. Mages have Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power and the Staff of Magi. Your point being? In the time you use your contingencies and triggers/sequencers, the cleric has already beaten the crap out of you. They could also cast Miscast magic while your busy sequencing them. Oh no! No more spells. Besides, you can't have your mage already memorizing sequencers, contingencies, sequencers if cleric can't put into place HIS spells (summonings, protection from evil, gates, spell shields ect). You can't give one an unfair advantage like that and expect an even fight. Oh, and the cleric could just read a scroll of Antimagic.... Looks like all that armour and weapon power just might come in handy! Therein lies the problem. Clerics cannot prepare spells before the battle. A Mage can, and this enables him to end the battle quickly and decisively. What is a Cleric going to do against a Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo? I only need a split second to cast this combo, faster than a blink of an eye.

12-11-2001, 01:59 PM	#39
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	quote: Originally posted by Worm: BUT STILL! If a cleric has 80 magic resistence he could just walk to the mage and pound his face in! Refer to the first page of this thread. The Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo is explained in better detail. Ah heck, I will just repeat myself. Spell Trigger = 3 Lower Resistances Chain Contingency = 3 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings Your Cleric will not be pounding, your Cleric will become a desiccated corpse on the ground.

12-11-2001, 11:01 AM	#34
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	So we agree then, that Clerics excel in helping others become even more powerful( like Mages ), that his/her forte is not brute offensive, but passive offensive. While you may think what Mage/Sorcerers can do is 'simplistic', do bear in mind that it does get the job done, and that is what matters. Oh, and regarding parties, since you want to talk about it, ever consider that the rest of the party can just sit back, relax and sip some tea while the Mage/Sorcerer does all the dirty work? Sure, they can chip in now and then whenever there is Drow about, but a Mage/Sorcerer is all about power, Clerics help add to that power.

12-11-2001, 11:18 AM	#35
Worm The Magister Join Date: December 2, 2001 Location: PA Posts: 114	Necromancers should have healing spells. What do clouds of noxious gas have to do with the magical study for death? I always hated that! Clerics are good, they have restoration spells that cure the entire party get some great weapons can wear armor but my favorite thing was ... energy disks. Mages get energy disk also so that means both classes rule because energy disks rule. ahhhh, You guys aren't factoring in equipment and such. A halfling cleric would disrupt the spells with his sling and chances are kill you considering he had high level equipment and that seems how the conversation is going as if each characters where high levels. Sure the mage could cast improved mantle ... then the halfling could cast something else. It is all circumstance! It depends on who gets on that first stupid little shield that makes them totally invulnerable the halfing might intterupt the spell the mage might get the shield up. Contingencies are unfair the only times they are used when you die reload and equip them for a hard battle or when you read in a Walk-thru that Dracos is tough. Contingencies were not designed for a reload button. This argument has no clear winner because each of your classes are support classes they function better in parties than alone there is no SOLO class. Sure I could have soloed WW2 had I a reload button I mean after gaining so much insight into the strategies after dying a million times sure I'd probably win WW2.

12-11-2001, 01:20 PM	#36
toriuxik Banned Smartass Join Date: November 26, 2001 Location: Who cares Posts: 216	Non detection has no effect upon True Sight. While you are busy casting protection from magical weapons, the cleric simply summons a few bears to smack to crap out of you. Or, they can use other spells like Bolt of Glory (or whatever its called). If the cleric certain equipment, they are going to be awful to try and kill for a mage. Human Skin armour, Ring of Gax x2, Seldarine necklace thingy, Flail of the Ages, Cloak of Balduran... Just that and you get 80% magic resistance. Mages can't field all that equipment. In the time you use your contingencies and triggers/sequencers, the cleric has already beaten the crap out of you. They could also cast Miscast magic while your busy sequencing them. Oh no! No more spells. Besides, you can't have your mage already memorizing sequencers, contingencies, sequencers if cleric can't put into place HIS spells (summonings, protection from evil, gates, spell shields ect). You can't give one an unfair advantage like that and expect an even fight. Oh, and the cleric could just read a scroll of Antimagic.... Looks like all that armour and weapon power just might come in handy!

12-11-2001, 01:55 PM	#38
Worm The Magister Join Date: December 2, 2001 Location: PA Posts: 114	BUT STILL! If a cleric has 80 magic resistence he could just walk to the mage and pound his face in!

12-11-2001, 02:08 PM	#40
Sir ReGiN Gold Dragon Join Date: August 11, 2001 Location: The land of blonde virgins Age: 43 Posts: 2,563	Don't be too hard on them, dundee

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