Throne of Bhaal - Short or Decent length

The final boss looks great too.

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Will the real cheesy lich stop using timestop, stop using time stop, YEAH BABY! :1diablo:

[ScottG]

You know, I didn't think it was that awesome. Most of it was weak in comparison to Amn.

Overall I thought TOB had a predictable plot with very weak situs's (locations, cities, ect.). It was something of a let-down. A lot of hack'n'slash w/ not much thought, and very few intresting char's, most were just things to be killed. Amn was MUCH better. There is nothing in TOB like Athkatla, or even Drow City, where you have different char.s, diff. solutions (other than hack'n'slash), & huge spaces to discover. If you liked simply going to the Windspear Hills and killing the red dragon then you might like TOB, although that quest was better than any of the "quests" in TOB (at least w/ that quest you really didn't know who you were fighting untill the end - unless you cheated). In TOB you almost always knew who or what you were up against b4 you started, even the ending sequence is explained to you (as if you were a moron) b4 you go to do battle (THIS SUCKS like a bad cartoon). But hey, its not like you really needed to be told the ending sequence, after the 1st "city"/"quest" you go through the ending should be pretty clear. As for wepons, by the time you get them you often no longer need them, in addition it is absurd that everyone seems to be carrying wepons that are +2 or better (even the common guards). The monsters are just as bad, nothing really new (or if it is, it is described and found littered everywhere in an Elminster book - there must have been 20 copies of this book throughout the game). Also the Arch-villian here just didn't have the depth and class that Jon did.

It seems quite clear to me that they took a basic story ending and slaped together a quick game to boost revenues (this game was seriously rushed).

All that said though there was a part of the game I thought was challenging and thought provoking - the Watcher's Keep. This portion of the game had several difficult areas, the plot wasn't clear, and there were some tough mental puzzels. There were even some intresting monsters (love that cambion) & lots of new wepons that you could use in TOB. It is fairly clear that the developers had been working longer on this portion then TOB, it was simply a lot better - but still not nearly as good as Amn.

For something intresting do this:

1st play TOB all the way through w/out the Watcher's Keep. Then go back and play the Watcher's keep portion and compare the two.


All said though I did think it was worth the money (but I thought Amn was acctually underpriced). I would have much prefered a 3rd game as developed as Amn rather than the TOB expansion - what a let-down.

[joetbd]

"I thought Amn was acctually underpriced"

If you wanted to spend more money for it, you probably could have found someone to take you up on that offer. Personally, I thought the $55 they got out of me was plenty. If you want to spend $100 or $200 on a game, I think I can arrange that for ya.

[ScottG]

Acctually I did spend more on it, I purchased the collectors addition.

$100-$200? Hardly. But if the Amn had the watcher's keep in it I think it would have easily been worth $75 (relative to other games on the market).

Lets just say that Amn was a bargain, a lot of gaming goodness for the coin (and much better than most of the other games out there that were priced similarly).

[joetbd]

Well, maybe the "Bad" games are over priced. We are not all as wealthy as you. And we cannot afford to spend $75 for a new PC game. For most people, renting PC games, is not possible, neither is a 110 MB demo download. So we need to buy games, based on word of mouth and some reviewers opinions. I am not sure if I could buy a game based on Gamespot’s, PC gamer’s, or CGW’s review, for $80.

If BG2 had been $75, I never would have given it a try (nor would lots of other people), and what good would that have done anyone, to have sales drop so?

Price is not a sign of Quality. My favorite baseball game cost less then $20, when the second game of the series came out in 1999. And the follow versions never cost more then $30. I’ve seen garbage selling for more then $50, and great games for less then $30.

These are not price-less antiques. They are mass produced discs, in paper packaging. Even if it is a really good game, it makes sense for the manufacturer to keep the price reasonable, so they can sell more of their product. There are lots of people that have never played BG1 or IWD; that would be completely scared off by a $75 price tag.


P.S.,
TOB should not be compared to SOA. One is a full game, the other is an expansion. A fair comparison would be to Tales of the Sword Coast or Heart of Winter. Both of which were products rushed out the door, to make money. They did not produce these produces to be as grand as the full games. These expansions are merely being put out, for the people that crave something (anything) new, because they have already played through the games, more then once sometimes.

[ScottG]

Ummm, your making quite a few assumptions here...

No I'm not wealthy, I simply purchase few games (sticking to those that have a good reputation as you put it - referencing firingsquad.com in paticular.) Hmmm, lets see - I believe I purchased Amn in December & I recently purchased Bhaal & Universal Europa. B4 that I hadn't purchased a game since NFS3, b4 that was Torment (or perhaps it was vice-versus). I have never played Bg1 or Dale.

Nor do I assume that a high-priced program will be good either in playability or eye candy. Frankly I think that most of the games on the market are rather poor, regardless of price. (I have seen many of the "latest and greatest" games being played in a local game retailer.)

I am well versed in economics and pricing in the gaming industry ($55 is generally the upper limit for games - though I haven't seen anyone try to really push it higher).

While Blackisle's marketing boys have tagged TOB as an expansion set, they certainly haven't backed this up by pricing ($30), playability (you can play it as if starting w/ a new game), or interview comentary where they refer to TOB as the 3rd in a trilogy (saying that it is basically a new game).

TOB should be compared to ANY game out there that is competing for your money (basic economic substitute analysis). But it is most pertanent to compare it to Amn because it is the direct sequal to Amn. (As you stated: many people have not played bg1 or dale and their expansion packs.) It is far more likely that someone considering purchasing TOB has already purchased Amn. However the original poster has purchased the others and their expansions, but my original comments were in opposition to all those who posted that TOB was Awesome, and unlike several I gave fair amount or info. on why I felt the way I did.

BTW, if you are correct in your analysis (people craving a new game) then Blackisle made a huge blunder dumping a $30 expansion program. They already had massive game recognition in the TOB series, simply dumping the series w/ TOB was a mistake (prob. predicated by the exp. point accumulation). They should have sold the Watcher's Keep for $15 to keep people happy and then have come out w/ a more expansive & polished TOB in December of this year.

[joetbd]

"you can play it as if starting w/ a new game"

The thing that makes it an expansion is that it requires the original game discs. TOSC, and HOW (I think) could also be started as their own games. That did not make them full games.

"But it is most pertanent to compare it to Amn because it is the direct sequal to Amn. "

It is an add on, just as were the other expansions. So it should be compared in size and scope to the other expansions. Also, you should make a Icewind Dale- Heart of Winter style comparision, because that is the question the guy asked. Heart of Winter was really TINY and SHORT, and he wanted to know if TOB was the same. He did not ask if it fully matched SOA. Or at least, thats how I read it. You can compare it to the original full game, but why? There is no way it was going to be as big or good as the full game, which just came out months before. And as for the price, that’s what a rip off expansion goes for now days, see Diablo 2's expansion. They push them as full games, just enough, so they can sell them for higher prices, but at the same time, advertise them as expansions, to keep expectations low.

1) Baldur’s Gate - Tales of the Sword Coast
2) Ice Wind Dale - Heart of Winter
3) BG2 - TOB

There is a pattern here. The expansions have always been much smaller projects. Not only smaller in size, but they have also lacked the story telling and general depth of the original game. None of the expansions were as grand as the game it was milking. Why did you expect something different from the Throne of Bhaal expansion?

"if you are correct in your analysis (people craving a new game) then Blackisle made a huge blunder dumping a $30 expansion program."

I did not say there were millions of such people. I said: "These expansions are merely being put out, for the people that crave something (anything) new, because they have already played through the games, more then once sometimes." Maybe they rushed this one out the door, to beat the Diablo 2’s game out of the gate. Because Last year, IWD and D2 came out on the very same day.

They are looking to tap a mark of people who have burned out on playing the same SOA, people that want more. These people are not going to refuse a product just because it’s not as great as the last full game. The makers are looking to take that market and combine it with some new users, and get decent sales.

This expansion was the equivalent of a summer movie. Something fun, but its not going win any awards. Like Jurassic Park 3. If you liked seeing dinosaurs the first couple of times around, well here’s some more. Anyone expecting great things from JP3, well… good luck.

I guess the thing that got me going was the $75 price tag you suggested, for SOA. Few of us are confident enough in our ability to choose a game, costing that much money. Most of us would probably switch over to console games, like the xbox or PS2.


[This message has been edited by joetbd (edited 07-04-2001).]

[Glycerine]

That's why it's called an expansion. You aren't supposed to be expecting Shadows of Amn all over again. It's just supposed to supplement BG2 with new items and areas, as well as bring a close to the story.

If you were expecting more, ScottG, then you were really kidding yourself. I haven't even went half-way through it yet, and I still feel it was well worth the money.

Glycerine

[This message has been edited by Glycerine (edited 07-04-2001).]

[ScottG]

Comparisons to Amn.....

(read 3rd post paragraph starting w/ "TOB")
- yes but it can be PLAYED w/ out ever playing Amn.

Expectations.......

(read 3rd post paragraph starting w/ "While")

No I certainly didn't expect it to be as grand in scope as Amn (though as I stated I would have much prefered to have one that was released latter that was - and of course w/ an approp. price increase). But I DID (for the money) expect it to be as well thought out and executed as Amn (though of course much smaller in size). Go back and read my first post again, play the game through and then read my post again and see what you think.

As I stated in my first post, I did think it was worth the money. However....

Lets do a simple cost benifit analysis: For $50 you could by Amn (acctually you could have gotten it for $45). You spent more than half of that on TOB, is TOB more than half as GOOD (quality not quantity) as Amn?

(I seem to be repeating myself here a lot to people that havn't played the game through fully, sat back, and have given some serious thought to the $30 bucks they just spent.)

[Arquetal]

I think its kinda sad that an epic saga like the Children of Bhaal should end with an expansion. Should not the conclusion of a trilogy be the very peak of excitement?
I have not yet played ToB yet, but from what I hear and what I would expect its a better expansion than HoW or TotSC, but still an expansion. It will never reach the level of greatness from SoA.
So, does this mean that this is the end of the 2D infinity games from Blackisle? I hope not.

GAMERS UNITE!!!!

I really dont want to keep updating my system for every new game they release...