Grandmastery: what does it do when unmodded?

Klorox · 05-14-2006, 10:25 PM

When playing BG2/ToB without any patches that restore the levels of weapon specialization to what they are in other games, what do these levels actually do for you?

Could somebody please chart this out for me?

TIA

SpongeLikeCow · 05-15-2006, 06:34 PM

Something like +1 THAC and +2 damage compared to specialization.

In other words, practically nothing.

Zink Whistlefly · 05-16-2006, 11:06 AM

IIRC the unmodded benefits are as follows (non cumulative!):

* = use the selected weapon with no penalties
** = +1 THAC0, +2 damage, +0.5 APR
*** = +2 THAC0, +2 damage, +0.5 APR
**** = +2 THAC0, +2 damage, +0.5 APR, -1 speed factor
***** = +2 THAC0, +3 damage, +0.5 APR, -1 speed factor.

So, investing a further 3 weapon proficiencies into any weapon will only give you +1 to hit, +1 to damage and -1 to weapon speed over specialisation, which as SpongeLikeCow rightly states is practically nothing.

Neomi · 05-20-2006, 09:12 AM

And what do the mods that restore grandmastery do to the tables? Can someone put the core rules and patched tables side by side for comparison?

thetruth · 05-20-2006, 10:48 AM

Before the True Grand Mastery fix:

* 1 ApR
** +1 to hit, +2 damage, 3/2 ApR
*** +2 to hit, +2 damage, 3/2 ApR
**** +2 to hit, +3 damage, 3/2 ApR, (-1 Speed Factor)
***** +2 to hit, +4 damage, 3/2 ApR, (-3 Speed Factor)

After (as it is in BG1/IWD1):

* 1 ApR
** +1 to hit, +2 damage, 3/2 ApR
*** +3 to hit, +3 damage, 3/2 ApR
**** +3 to hit, +4 damage, 3/2 ApR, (-1 Speed Factor)
***** +3 to hit, +5 damage, 5/2 ApR, (-3 Speed Factor)

Klorox · 05-20-2006, 10:59 AM

thetruth, are you sure about that Grandmastery (BG1 version)? It seems strange to me that you'd jump from 3/2 ApR to 5/2. 2/1 ApR seems like the next "step" in that progression.

thetruth · 05-20-2006, 11:13 AM

Yep, tested.Some of the Readmes out there are wrong on this (Ease of use).

Klorox · 05-20-2006, 11:15 AM

Wow. That step seems overpowered.

Dundee Slaytern · 05-20-2006, 02:57 PM

Consider that you need to be at least Level 9 before you can attain GM( no mean feat in BG1 and IWD), and only in ONE weapon proficiency to boot. Also, compare and contrast the pros and cons of Fighters versus Rangers/Paladins( or other classes for that matter) in whole, not just GM.

Spells, better weapon variety, immunities, level differences, combat bonuses, etc... the list goes on and on.

Just explain HOW does 5/2 ApR make the Fighter overpowered please.

[ 05-20-2006, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Klorox · 05-20-2006, 04:19 PM

I'm not saying that GM makes them overpowered. I'm saying the jump from 3/2 to 5/2 ApR is overpowered.

05-14-2006, 10:25 PM	#1
Klorox Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 21, 2004 Location: USA Age: 49 Posts: 1,168	When playing BG2/ToB without any patches that restore the levels of weapon specialization to what they are in other games, what do these levels actually do for you? Could somebody please chart this out for me? TIA __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu! "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."-- Edmund Burke

05-20-2006, 09:12 AM	#4
Neomi Zhentarim Guard Join Date: January 28, 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 53 Posts: 312	And what do the mods that restore grandmastery do to the tables? Can someone put the core rules and patched tables side by side for comparison? __________________ \"Though we name the things we know, we do not necessarily know the things we name.\" -Homer W. Smith

05-20-2006, 10:59 AM	#6
Klorox Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 21, 2004 Location: USA Age: 49 Posts: 1,168	thetruth, are you sure about that Grandmastery (BG1 version)? It seems strange to me that you'd jump from 3/2 ApR to 5/2. 2/1 ApR seems like the next "step" in that progression. __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu! "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."-- Edmund Burke

05-20-2006, 11:15 AM	#8
Klorox Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 21, 2004 Location: USA Age: 49 Posts: 1,168	Wow. That step seems overpowered. __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu! "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."-- Edmund Burke

05-20-2006, 04:19 PM	#10
Klorox Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 21, 2004 Location: USA Age: 49 Posts: 1,168	I'm not saying that GM makes them overpowered. I'm saying the jump from 3/2 to 5/2 ApR is overpowered. __________________ Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu! "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."-- Edmund Burke

05-15-2006, 06:34 PM	#2
SpongeLikeCow Dungeon Master Join Date: May 23, 2004 Location: USA Age: 46 Posts: 63	Something like +1 THAC and +2 damage compared to specialization. In other words, practically nothing.

05-16-2006, 11:06 AM	#3
Zink Whistlefly Avatar Join Date: March 20, 2005 Location: North Yorkshire, England Age: 44 Posts: 520	IIRC the unmodded benefits are as follows (non cumulative!): * = use the selected weapon with no penalties = +1 THAC0, +2 damage, +0.5 APR * = +2 THAC0, +2 damage, +0.5 APR ** = +2 THAC0, +2 damage, +0.5 APR, -1 speed factor *** = +2 THAC0, +3 damage, +0.5 APR, -1 speed factor. So, investing a further 3 weapon proficiencies into any weapon will only give you +1 to hit, +1 to damage and -1 to weapon speed over specialisation, which as SpongeLikeCow rightly states is practically nothing.

05-20-2006, 10:48 AM	#5
thetruth Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: Greece Age: 44 Posts: 38	Before the True Grand Mastery fix: * 1 ApR +1 to hit, +2 damage, 3/2 ApR * +2 to hit, +2 damage, 3/2 ApR ** +2 to hit, +3 damage, 3/2 ApR, (-1 Speed Factor) *** +2 to hit, +4 damage, 3/2 ApR, (-3 Speed Factor) After (as it is in BG1/IWD1): * 1 ApR +1 to hit, +2 damage, 3/2 ApR * +3 to hit, +3 damage, 3/2 ApR ** +3 to hit, +4 damage, 3/2 ApR, (-1 Speed Factor) *** +3 to hit, +5 damage, 5/2 ApR, (-3 Speed Factor)

05-20-2006, 11:13 AM	#7
thetruth Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: Greece Age: 44 Posts: 38	Yep, tested.Some of the Readmes out there are wrong on this (Ease of use).

05-20-2006, 02:57 PM	#9
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 42 Posts: 11,063	Consider that you need to be at least Level 9 before you can attain GM( no mean feat in BG1 and IWD), and only in ONE weapon proficiency to boot. Also, compare and contrast the pros and cons of Fighters versus Rangers/Paladins( or other classes for that matter) in whole, not just GM. Spells, better weapon variety, immunities, level differences, combat bonuses, etc... the list goes on and on. Just explain HOW does 5/2 ApR make the Fighter overpowered please. [ 05-20-2006, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

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