Avenger or Shapeshifter?

[Dirty Meg]

Which would make a better PC druid?
The manual claims that avenger druids get some mage spells. How many? Which ones? Instead of or as well as druid spells? I'm a bit dubious of the avenger's str and con penalties, but I don't particularly like the shapeshifters inability to wear armour. Any thoughts?

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Avengers get... If memory serves, Chromatic Orb, Web, Lightning Bolt, Improved Invisibility, and... Chaos, I believe. Nothing special, except I found that when soloing Improved Invisibility, Chain Lightning, and Chromatic Orb came in REALLY handy. The Str penalty doesn't matter if you factor in the presence of strength-enhancing items and the ability to shapeshift an insane amount of times into strong creatures. As for Constitution and hit points, well... That's what Stoneskins are for.

[Dirty Meg]

Hmmm... Thanks for the info, but still very much undecided.

[Armen]

i haven't played either but i'd imagine that a shapeshifter might get a bit dull - the avenger gets a few extra spells and the funky change options

i like the character idea of an avenger druid too (although i think they'd be a bit intense for most parties)

[Assassin]

Try a Totemic Druid. One of the most underrated characters in the game.

[Dirty Meg]

I thought all they got was extra summon spells. My reasoning for not taking one was that druids already have excellent summon spells. Do you know something I don't? [img]smile.gif[/img] I'd be intrested to hear the case for a totemic druid if you don't mind Assassin. (Although -bg1 spoilers-
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I've just wasted Sarevok, so you'll have to be quick.)

[SixOfSpades]

In order of (my) preference:

Totemic Druid. Spirit Animals are a quite useful summon, since they have many useful immunities, especially in the early game. Sure, Druids have many good Summons available to them anyway, but this frees up more spellslots for other potent spells. The best part about the Totemic Druid is that it has NO drawbacks, since the Bear and Wolf forms were useless even in BG1--they're just even more useless now.

Avenger. The Sword Spider form is at least passably useful, with combat skills far beyond what a plain Druid could muster in the first half of SoA. And the extra flexibility in spellcasting is another healthy boost. The disadvantages to the kit are rather minimal: The CON penalty can be overcome simply by rolling high on CON, and the STR penalty is only important if you're planning to Dual to Fighter, and even then it can still be done.

Pureclassed Druid. Not as good as a Cleric, or a Fighter/Druid, of course, but then a large part of that is due to the fact that there are no really good Druid weapons.

Shapeshifter. First you've got the drawback that all Shapeshifters are the same (since you can't wear armor, and weapon proficiencies & stats become irrelevant in Wolfwere form), and then there's the fact that your paws can be dispelled right out from under you, and even the Greater Wolfwere's combat stats and immunities start to become obsolete once you start getting to the high levels and really good equipment. If you want to play a Druid who can fight, just be a Fighter/Druid.

[Dirty Meg]

I've settled on an avenger (and a no reloads game - oh dear). Suprisingly, I didn't lose any Str and Con when I imported.
I would disagree that clerics are better than druids. Pure druids can't make good frontliners, and can't turn undead, but their spells are certainly better as far as I'm concerned.
The fact a shapeshifters paws can be dispelled is not a disadvantage. With dispelled paws you can equip real weapons (str 25 staff of ram anyone?) - Casting dispel on your own shapeshifter would be cheesy beyond measure, but if it happens, why not make a virtue out of a necessity? It makes the werewolf useful even against real enemies (because the paws are normal weapons, werewolves are only really good tanks against low level minions. Once you reach the boss, you have to change back and start casting spells).

[ 10-18-2005, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Dirty Meg ]

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Hm.. How many attacks per round does a werewolf get?

[Assassin]

Okay, while this is largely academic at this point, here's my view:

I build my parties around causing the maximum amount of damage possible. Which means that my Fighters are usually going to be dual-wielding and can't really tank. Additionally, my party is generally fairly bank-rank heavy (druid/cleric, thief, couple of mages, couple of fighters). Which means that what I need are tanks. While in the early game, it might get a bit tougher, it pays off the dividends later on when an AC of -6 won't help you in ToB.

Spirit Animals and Fire Elementals help in the early game. In fact, I would say along with Insect Plague, Totemic Druids can shut down almost all of the early game. Stats for the Spirit Animals (per DSimpson's guide on gameFAQs) say that all the Spirit animals have 100% resistance to Cold and Electricity, have fairly low AC (2 to -1), 3 ApR for the most part, but fairly high thac0. Oh, and the snake can deal out poison damage. IIRC, they're also immune to normal weapons.

This makes Fire Elementals and Spirit Animals fit the bill very nicely early and even mid game. Buff then up a bit, slap on a Haste, and they can solo quite a few fights by themselves, as loong as you're careful to Insect Plague the Mages. The endgame they're weak, but at that point, you're usually rolling over everyone anyways.

As for the Druid having plenty of good summons: Nymphs are too weak, IMO, for my party. I have the spellcasters. I don't need anymore. I need tanks, not something that will roll over against a kobold. And Fire Elementals aren't numerous early-game to really be a factor unless you constantly rest after every single battle.

ADD] In a no-reloads game, I would consider good, solid summons to be even more important. Nymphs just aren't sturdy enough for me...

[ 10-18-2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]