Random Ilyich ramblings (Tactics spoilers galore)

[Dace De'Briago]

I have a screenshot of me hitting a group of Duergar with a Holy Smite. The Battle Text reads:
Duergar Party Member- Magic Resistance
Duergar Proletariat- Save vs. Spell
Duergar Proletariat- Save vs. Spell
Duergar Proletariat- Save vs. Spell
None of them took any damage from the spell. Now, Shadowkeeper does not indicate any MR at all for the Proles or Party Members, and Holy Smite only allows a Save for HALF damage. I can understand scripting some innate MR for residents of the Underdark, but I'd at least like to know how much--and what the heck happened with those Proles?
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Is their alignment definately evil? Check [img]smile.gif[/img]

[chimaera]

Duergar proletariat fighters are neutral.

[JrKASperov]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: Remember this: From the Tactics Read Me file... "Improved Ilych is a PARODY." (Translation: a joke... It's so over-the-top extreme that it is supposed to be funny.) If you can beat it, then you've beat something that was really meant as an entertaining joke, but technically is still beatable with hardcore game tactics. Let's try not to take this componant too over-seriously. [/QB]

Yes it's supposed ot be fun, but many of the battles in Tactics are so aggravating that it has only a few ways of taking them on. And when you have to play the same battle the same way every time you play is NOT FUN!

For instance, with Ilyich, you either have to charm one of the partymembers, and you WILL have to reload to make it work, or lure them out one at a time, which doesn't make sense, no experiences team would go out alone. You have ABSOLUTELY no chance taking them on head-on at that level. I know because I once sent a single lvl 24 paladin with carsomyr and a blue dragon plate in to tackle them head-on and alone. He failed, even with the help of a Deva.

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by JrKASperov: For instance, with Ilyich, you either have to charm one of the partymembers, and you WILL have to reload to make it work, or lure them out one at a time, which doesn't make sense, no experiences team would go out alone. You have ABSOLUTELY no chance taking them on head-on at that level. I know because I once sent a single lvl 24 paladin with carsomyr and a blue dragon plate in to tackle them head-on and alone. He failed, even with the help of a Deva.

I wouldn't go as far as say it is impossible to tackle the entire party head-on without disabling spells. Buff up properly with haste, def harmony, imp inv etc, use as many weakening spells as you can on them (insect plagues, slow), use lots of summons as cannon fodder, and time your attack carefully, and it's possible. If anyone in your party happens to have very good stealth scores, he can take out the entire party by himself with a bit of patience.

As for your suggestions Six.

1) I agree that the belt serves absolutely no purpose but to allow people to cheese their way through the dungeon. Discouraging it can only be a good thing, I say get rid of it and good riddance.

2) Can't say I see your point here. It would only make a difference to people doing NR games or others determined to kill Ilyich in one go, and why should they have the privilege of being able to use door-slamming cheese? I don't see how this discourages "bad" door-slamming either, how would for instance this restriction prevent people from going with the ancient cheese method of luring them out to the Otuygh room one at a time and slam the door shut to keep the rest of the party from helping out? Maybe I just don't quite understand your idea.

3) Haven't ever let Zhivago live long enough to experience his new casting script, but whatever happened to the spell selection Dundee devised this spring? I would've loved seeing Zhivago summon a few mountain bears or an aerial servant instead of the now even more ridiculous Fallen Deva (seeing it annihilate it's own party with a fire storm wasn't exactly pretty). They certainly wouldn't be pushovers, and then you could at least have the option of actually trying to fight his summon, instead of either interrupting his casting, run away and wait for it to disappear, or simply surrender.

4) Cool idea, go ahead with it! Haven't actually read the introduction to chapter 2 in a long time, but I couldn't imagine the explosion being strong enough to make that entire dungeon inaccessible. Having the fight in the trap room might sound cool, but would probably only be annoying, and I bet they'd harm themselves more than my party.

5) Nice detail, wont significantly impact the balance or gameplay, so why not?

6) No Armor of Faith for Jaheira? At least one ought to be given for a fighter hybrid such as herself. AoF ought to be more appropriate for Minsc as well.

7) Not that it affects gameplay much, Imoen isn't going to be much more useful as a scout with 10-15 more points in stealth, but I don't understand why it's necessary to tamper with things like that, at least not if you're suggesting this as an official change to the tactics mod.

8) All for it! As it stands, you can easily kill several duergar fighters at the same time without taking a scratch if you've got a few summons or fellow party members.

[JrKASperov]

Originally posted by Rataxes: I wouldn't go as far as say it is impossible to tackle the entire party head-on without disabling spells. Buff up properly with haste, def harmony, imp inv etc, use as many weakening spells as you can on them (insect plagues, slow), use lots of summons as cannon fodder, and time your attack carefully, and it's possible. If anyone in your party happens to have very good stealth scores, he can take out the entire party by himself with a bit of patience.

That's not my point. You now post two more tactics, of which one is a little cheesy. (it's not like a party of seasoned adventurers wouldn't be able to swat a hit-n-runner, again, game limitations). My point is that these tactics, along with the ones I posted, are the ONLY possible ways of clearing them! That's very boring! Furthermore, you won't have access to all those spells, unless you decide to tailormake a char for this, which is unacceptable for me.

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by JrKASperov: quote: Originally posted by Rataxes: I wouldn't go as far as say it is impossible to tackle the entire party head-on without disabling spells. Buff up properly with haste, def harmony, imp inv etc, use as many weakening spells as you can on them (insect plagues, slow), use lots of summons as cannon fodder, and time your attack carefully, and it's possible. If anyone in your party happens to have very good stealth scores, he can take out the entire party by himself with a bit of patience.

That's not my point. You now post two more tactics, of which one is a little cheesy. (it's not like a party of seasoned adventurers wouldn't be able to swat a hit-n-runner, again, game limitations). My point is that these tactics, along with the ones I posted, are the ONLY possible ways of clearing them! That's very boring! Furthermore, you won't have access to all those spells, unless you decide to tailormake a char for this, which is unacceptable for me. [/QUOTE]I frankly don't see how this party could defend against someone who moves and strikes at supernatural speed (think, Oil of Speed) and disappears into the shadows again before they even know what hit them, besides cuddling up together in the middle of an open room and constantly watching each others backs, but that is hardly something this party would realistically consider, considering their task.

These methods I mentioned aren't the only ones by a long shot, there a dozens of ways to tackle this party, some involving cheese, as is the case with any enemy party. What then is your point, other than that the harder the battle, the fewer options are open to you?

[ 08-26-2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by SpongeBobTheDestoyer: 1. Immys belt is a bit disruptive to the rules but as long as she can cast a Summon Monster spell it serves the same purpose - eat up the Dolorious Decay, Hold Person, Confusion or whatever spells. So take it away or keep it, I don't think it matters.

True, but her Belt means that she can soak up a Dolorous Decay for free, leaving her Monster Summoning for screwing up a pack of Duergar. But most cheesy of all is the exploit of getting Imoen Silenced and/or Confused right before the fight with Ilyich Co. If she can't talk to you, she can't leave the party, which means all the Duergar are expending all their firepower trying to kill somebody wearing a MINHP1 item. Now THAT's cheese.

3. If the armor drops then what would I use my first Limited Wish spell for? Gems - phooey.

Another set of armor? Glasses of Identification? A quest? Gee, I dunno. Weimer was the one who created the scenario, I'm just correcting it to make sense.

5. I have no idea what those stand for but I like treasure!

RNDTRE means Random Treasure. They're listed in Shadowkeeper, and numbered from 01 (something dumb, like a Silver Necklace or 1 gp) to 05 (substantial amount of gold, expensive gem or jewelry, nice Potion, or Scroll up to 8th level).

10. I've had several MR's come up for those bastards. Karamozov too, does she have MR?

Being a Wizard Slayer, Karamazov does indeed have some MR. Not anywhere near as much as Wizard Slayers should have, but she does have some.

I would love for you to make a mod like that, or any other that you've thought about. With your ideas I think you should spend more time developing your own mods instead of disecting Weimers. And if you really want to fix a broken mod that has potential look at the Improved Battles mod.

Well, given the iffy nature of my computer, I can't be sure that anything I write will even function on any other computer, so I think I'll just remain a dramaturge for now, and limit my actual coding to a few nifty custom items. As for Improved Battles, it's kinda difficult for me to make suggestions on a mod that I refuse to install. Besides, from what I hear, it's already perfect: Downloadable sadism, for masochists.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Link: Loot can't be a real reason to change something so fundamental to the original game. In the same line of your argument [the player knowing what happens to Imoen already] you could argue that the player should also know what happens to Imoen once she hits that crucial 1 HP. Same thing, other perspective.

The loot was, of course, only a minor consideration. Far more important to me was the possibility of keeping Imoen alive longer. (Funny how an item/script designed to prevent her from dying is responsible for not being able to keep her alive. I'll file that with the Ring of Doom I made for Leslie, which insures a party member's continued life--by killing them.)
In the second point of your paragraph above, are you saying that it's the player's job to accept that Imoen freaks and runs when she gets to 1 hp? That view does make sense, but then, so does mine. Besides, Imoen is made of sterner stuff than, say, Aerie.

Piotr was indeed Tchaikovsky's first name, his FULL name being Piotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky. I trust you to see both reasons for me to suggest the name "Piotr". Solzhenitsyn (forgive for raping his name as well; he's a great writer of his time) and his Gulag Archipel are of course known to me, as is Denisovich. If you want to stay focussed on the Revolution (after all, Lenin was a 'Ilyich' as well), then that name [Denisovich] would be better suited indeed, and I would advise you to change Tchaikovsky's name into Lev (or you could go for Stachanov, but he had nothing to do with the Revolution in '17). I trust you know both names.

Hey, I checked Google, and you spelled his name right! Huzzah, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, you shall not be raped today! I must admit that I am familiar with neither Lev nor Stachov (I prefer to feast on random knowledge rather than focusing on anything in particular), but I do know all about Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov--in fact, I'm sure that that link was what started the Communism kick in Weimer's mind in the first place.
Tchaikovsky is out--far, far too early. Enter Prokofiev! I'd like to call the Bard (Lieutenant) Kizheh, but frankly the name doesn't look Russian enough. Besides, some of Prokofiev's work was so nationalist as to be considered propaganda--perfect for a Skald.

Originally posted by chimaera: Duergar proletariat fighters are neutral.

Oh, yeah, well that makes all the sense in the world, doesn't it? Something tells me that Weimer based them on a Dwarven Fighter that he just happened to create with a Neutral alignment--I notice that they all have Bhaalspawn abilities too.
(Wait a minute--then why do they show up when I Detect Evil? Was that alignment added by the same script that gave the Party Members their MR?)

Originally posted by JrKASperov: ....And when you have to play the same battle the same way every time you play is NOT FUN! For instance, with Ilyich, you either have to charm one of the partymembers, and you WILL have to reload to make it work, or lure them out one at a time, which doesn't make sense, no experiences team would go out alone.

Just to be a stinker, I should point out a 3rd way: If the Duergar party that spawns in the library includes War Dogs, then the narrow passageway is blocked, meaning that Ilyich on Patrol will be unable to get past them, which means the whole gang of 6 gets clustered into a little group, all pushing to get through. Now, I agree that this doesn't make much sense either (when a Golem tells you to move, you MOVE), but it's equivalent to Ilyich & Co. having a quiet chat with the Party Member and the Proles, and what's illogical about that? Anyway, the upshot of this serendipitous event is that you are now able to carpet the area with enough Webs, Confusions, Chaoses, Dooms, and Fireballs to put a serious dent in your enemies' outlook of health and happiness.

Originally posted by Rataxes: 2) Can't say I see your point here. It would only make a difference to people doing NR games or others determined to kill Ilyich in one go, and why should they have the privilege of being able to use door-slamming cheese? I don't see how this discourages "bad" door-slamming either, how would for instance this restriction prevent people from going with the ancient cheese method of luring them out to the Otuygh room one at a time and slam the door shut to keep the rest of the party from helping out? Maybe I just don't quite understand your idea.

I applaud Weimer for disallowing tactics like "lead Ilyich into a room and pretend he isn't smart enough to open a door." But I dislike being similarly forbidden from being able to roleplay things like "Minsc, you hold that door shut so the Party Member can't see us until we've killed this Prole." I also, of course, understand that the two ideals are pretty much mutually exclusive. Happily, by overlooking the doors opened by the Sewage Golem, Weimer has provided a compromise that I find satisfying: I can pretend that stationing a reasonably strong party member next to a door prevents that door from being opened--but ONLY if I don't keep Reloading until I luck out.

3) Haven't ever let Zhivago live long enough to experience his new casting script, but whatever happened to the spell selection Dundee devised this spring?

That, too, sounds like an improvement, and one with which Dundee should be more familiar than I--I know next to nothing about writing working AIs. Zhivago is still dangerous with the spells he has now (Poison, Flamestrike, Bolt of Glory), but he's too foolhardy and offensive.

4) Having the fight in the trap room might sound cool, but would probably only be annoying, and I bet they'd harm themselves more than my party.

Not if Prokofiev disarmed the Wand-traps right before the Proles and Party Members rushed in from the Forge room and the door to the Mephit room in a big pincer movement. [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img] Prokofiev himself would be under Minor Globe as well as Invisibility, so while the Traps are on he can run back and forth, completely immune to the Cone of Cold/Fireball/Lightning/Monster Summoning trouble he's causing you. [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img] He'll try to avoid the Magic Missiles trap, though--it can't hurt you, and helps to give away his position.

6) No Armor of Faith for Jaheira? At least one ought to be given for a fighter hybrid such as herself. AoF ought to be more appropriate for Minsc as well.

I discounted AoF because a 10% damage reduction doesn't seem that hot, I personally would rather be able to put some Healing wherever it was needed. Opinions may differ, but I'm not going to sweat having the "best" spells memorized--as long as they're "good" spells, and realistic for someone in Jaheira's position to memorize, I'm content.

[qb]7) Not that it affects gameplay much, Imoen isn't going to be much more useful as a scout with 10-15 more points in stealth, but I don't understand why it's necessary to tamper with things like that, at least not if you're suggesting this as an official change to the tactics mod.

Oh, it isn't necessary, it's simply that as an adventurer, Imoen would realize that she needs points in Pick Pockets like she needs the archetypical hole in the head.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 1) Lose Imoen's Belt, and her "HP = 1" speech. Anybody that installs mods is going to be familiar with the Main Plot, and already *know* that Imoen is supposed to be alive at the dungeon exit, come hell or high water. Therefore, the only purpose the Belt really serves is to allow all kinds of cheese, from making her immune to Dolorous Decay to turning her into an unkillable Tank. IMHO, It's worth a small chance of discontinuity (Imoen would have to get chunked in the dungeon, since Jaheira is only inches away from knowing Harper's Call) to get that cheese out of the picture.

Don't really care one way or the other on this point. If Imoen ever got "taken out", I just Re-loaded and tried again. I don't use the Belt for Cheese and I consider her "dead" if she leaves the party, so it hasn't been an issue for me.

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 2) Not ALL the doors on Level 1 are stuck open. The North, West, and South doors of the Otyugh Room (the ones opened by the Sewage Golem) can be manipulated as before, PROVIDED that the player has not Reloaded since sending the Sewage Golem on his rounds. In my opinion, this should stay. Not only does it strongly discourage things like Reloading over and over until Karamazov fails her Save vs. Charm, but since it increases the odds of one's entire party being in the Otyugh Room, it allows "good" door-slamming ("Jaheira, you stand here and hold the door shut while Minsc and I pound the Golem") but not "bad" door-slamming (Lure out the Glabrezu, lock him in the Glass Jar room. Lure out Zhivago, lock him in Rielev's room, etc).

As much as I LOVED the "Door-slamming cheese tactic" in the original Tactics Mod, I quickly adapted a new "Charming" strategy to handle the improvements made to Illyich and Crew. I have no problems with ALL doors remaining open. Besides, you can always use that to your advantage and simply lead the various members on a merry old chase. Rasputin is the only one that can outrun your characters and an Oil of Speed will handle that.

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 3) I dropped Zhivago down to Level 13 and made his Plate droppable. When it comes to his spells, though, I frankly think his AI needs reworking. Spells like Flamestrike and Poison are good, but what's with all the Magic Stones? When I gave him some Sanctuary to cast, he didn't do so, even when he was surrounded and alone. He's a spellcaster, so have him fight like one, including having him favor a Sling instead of a Flail.

Sounds good to me. I would love a chance to get his armor and I would accept him being made more dangerous in order to get it.

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 4) I'm idly contemplating a Return to Ilyich mod, which creates a sewer-dwelling Halfling named Murray, who hangs out with Roger the Fence. He knows the sewer systems of Athkatla like the back of his hand, *including* the ones below Waukeen's Promenade. For a price, he can squeeze the party into a tunnel that runs from the Slums Sewers to a spot near the exit from Jon's Dungeon, and from there to the Otyugh Room. Now, Ilyich and company are hardly likely to hang around with their employer in Spellhold (who's gonna sign their paychecks?), so the party must return within 3 days if you want to collect any acorns. Therefore, the Duergar aren't going to have to contend with any high-level parties wielding Carsomyr, but the Glabrezu's and Golem's immunities aren't going to protect them anymore, either. To compensate (especially to replace any of the gang that the party killed the first time through), I'm adding 3 new Duergar that happened to be out of the dungeon earlier: The real brains of the whole outfit is Kasparov, a master strategist in the shape of a Level 13 Conjurer, followed by a Level 15 Skald named Tchaikovsky and a Level 10/12 Fighter/Thief named Denisovich. Ideally, this fight should take place in the Wand-trap Room, with an Invisible Tchaikovsky running around turning the traps on and off for added fun, but that's probably just a pipe dream. What are your thoughts on this?

That's an interesting idea, but how many players actually enter the sewers within the first 3 days??? Your first two encounters are likely to be the Circus and Pebblecrusher at the Seven Vales Inn (although less experienced players may wait on him a bit). From there, it will be on to the Coppor Coronet, where they will likely take out the Slaver Guards (and the Slaver Compound itself). That will take at least 1 day because any spells they had left from the Circus are sure to be gone after the Slaver's Compound (actually, these two alone will almost definitely account for 2 days - as most players will need to rest and regain spells at least once to finish both of them). Then there is the Murder Mystery in the Bridge District which will usually be one of the next quests taken.

Also, they will have been approached by Firkrag (in human form) and Nalia in the Coronet and been offered those quests. Anomen and Korgan may have been "bumped into" as well.

The point is, there isn't much likelihood (given the current storyline) that the character or party will even enter the Temple District to be sent to the sewers in the first place. It IS possible for them to go there in search of Haer'Dalis within 3 days, but they are going to face the Sewer Party and Mekrath's dungeon in that adventure - which will most likely result in another rest to regain spells.

Now it would be possible for them to meet Roger the Fence within the required 3 days if they went to the Five Flagons and agreed to search for Haer'Dalis. But the time limitation means they will have to abandon the search for Haer'Dalis and accept Roger's quest immediately - AND they will have to pay for the privilege. Not a very enticing offer since they just got hit with a 20,000gp price tag to recover their lost party member. Every other quest allows the option of accepting the quest, but finishing the business at hand FIRST. I understand your reasons for the time limitation, but perhaps it should be extended to 5-7 days rather than 3.

Why would Illyich and company hang around for an entire week - or possibly longer after the dungeon collapsed? Simple. They're DWARVES. You could justify them staying (AND putting them in the Wand Trap room to boot) by saying were busy re-digging the escape tunnel that collapsed in the fight. I'm certain a mage of Jon's power has been gone for more than a week before now, so Illyich and the new members really wouldn't have any way of knowing he isn't coming back this time. And they do know that Jon will probably be royally ticked off when he learns the prisoners escaped. Add in the fact that they sat around instead of repairing the collapsed tunnel and I can't imagine why they wouldn't be working on it to show Jon they hadn't abandoned their posts or their duties.

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 5) Since they're treasure-loving Dwarves running around in a dungeon packed to the gills with magical loot lying about, I've given all the Duergar some random stuff to drop. Proletariats got RNDTRE02 and 03, Party Members got 03 and 04, and all named Duergar got 2 RNDTRE05s. Loot was some gold and minor jewelry for the most part, but enough Scrolls and Potions to give some interesting variety.

That would be nice and it was something I yearned for myself when I first started running in to them. But in the end, all that is going to do is give the party a LOT more loot (and extra scrolls) that they can either use to become stronger or sell to buy better stuff with immediately after getting out.

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 6) Imoen chose a pretty good selection of spells, considering the situation, but Jaheira's and Minsc's are frankly moronic. Hold Animal? Detect Evil? CALL LIGHTNING!?! Sheesh. I reorganized their spellbooks as follows: IMOEN: Armor x1, Magic Missile x3. Mirror Image x1, Web x2. Haste x1, Monster Summoning x1, FireBall x1. Stoneskin x1, Improved Invisibility x1. MINSC: Cure Light Wounds. JAHEIRA: CLW x3, Doom x1, Shillelagh x1. Barkskin x2, Charm Person/Mammal x1. Cure Medium Wounds x3. Call Woodland Beings x2. (The Shillelagh and Barkskins are because she can see that neither Minsc nor herself has access to any armor or weapons.) I was also annoyed with the awkward way the game chose incarnations of the NPCs to accompany you. Start with a PC of around 161k EXP, and your Minsc might vary from 89k all the way up to 400k. Since I always use the Tome of Retroactive Convenience, I simply overwrote MINSC7 and MINSC9 with the file MINSC8, assuring that I will always get a Minsc with 161k EXP. I did the same with Jaheira, too, for the same reason. Oh, yes, I also moved Minsc's proficiencies in Mace into Axe, to better match his BG1 starting proficiencies. You can't choose Racial Enemy:Gnoll in BG2, though. Do you think he should go for Ogre or Hobgoblin?

That's a good point, but you can't accomplish the same thing by taking your 1 "Free Rest" at the beginning of the dungeon. And if you're playing a spellcaster, you have to take that "Free Rest" anyway. Still, it is a valid point and a good suggestion for those players that prefer to "hit the ground running".

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 7) I tweaked Imoen's Thieving skills a bit, too. Basically, I disregarded her past of pickpocketing the Monks of Candlekeep and moved all of her points in Pick Pockets (not that there were many) into Stealth, along with 5 of her points from Open Locks. She now has Traps 95%, Locks 95%, Pockets 25%, Move Silently 40%, Hide in Shadows 30%, Detect Illusion 0%, and Set Traps 5%. I made the same adjustments with the 2 Spellhold Imoens as well.

Makes sense to me. I like it.

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 8) It has been suggested that the Duergar Proletariats be made *smarter* than a box of hair, i.e. able to acquire new targets while the first one is still alive. Although it would make them much more dangerous, I must agree with this--I can see a Jailkeep Golem being stupid enough to run in circles without realizing it's never going to hit anything before it dies, but Dwarves aren't supposed to be that brain-dead. I would have the Proles switch to attack the closest target every 1 or 2 rounds, and also drop their strange ability to know where their target is, even from the other side of the map. Now, since the Proles can't be run in circles anymore, this makes them real bruisers--to compensate, I suggest more balanced stats. I'm going to roll a Dwarven Fighter now: The numbers that came up were 11/11/14/16/12/11. Well, that certainly sucked, didn't it? I'll roll twice more. I got 13/8/16/14/15/11, and 14/8/13/15/16/13. I suggest that ILYPARTY, ILYTH, and ILYTHF01, respectively, use these rounder stats--thus lessening the damage that the party is now sure to suffer. Not to be one-sided, though, the Proles now carry Small Shields. Maybe I'll give them some Throwing Axes or something, too.

Absolutely agree 100%. It's kinda sad to see such idiotic AI's on a Tactics enemy. My one complaint regarding the Duergar's are the Spawn Rate. With a full party, it's no problem. But for those that want to solo (or duo), it makes it almost impossible to clear the dungeon of all enemies. I know the counter-argument is that the PC and/or party should want to escape as quickly as possible instead of going around looking for guards to kill, but I disagree. Since you have to go through 90% of the dungeon ANYWAY (if you want to recover the acorns for the dryads), it just makes sense that you want to ensure there are no enemies left to sneak up on you from behind.

And my PC's usually want to deal out a good measure of payback to their captor before leaving anyway. So most of my PC's would want to clear every single hallway before moving on. That way, they can be relatively sure there are no threats left catch them from behind.

I don't know if the Spawn Rate can be adjusted for party size or not, so it may just be something that solo characters have to live with - but that is the main improvement I would suggest from my personal experience.

As always, I like your suggestions and especially appreciate the reasoning and logic you put into them. You always justify them in context with the game rules and settings instead of just saying "I think it ought be this way because I just don't like it the other way" and I think that lends a tremendous air of credibility to the suggestions you make - and I was especially excited to see you making several suggestions regarding one of my favorite encounters in the entire game.

[ 08-28-2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Cerek ]

[SpongeBobTheDestoyer]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: Being a Wizard Slayer, Karamazov does indeed have some MR. Not anywhere near as much as Wizard Slayers should have, but she does have some.

I didn't know she was a WS. Is there something keepi - Never mind, she only uses ranged attacks. Well what the heck is the point of making her a WS if she never makes a melee attack. Maybe that's something that could be changed along with your idea to change Zhivago's tactics.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Cerek: Don't really care one way or the other on this point. If Imoen ever got "taken out", I just Re-loaded and tried again. I don't use the Belt for Cheese and I consider her "dead" if she leaves the party, so it hasn't been an issue for me.

But it does for some people, with me being one of them--the Belt was a nice way to ensure the plot, way back in the mists of time when it was practically impossible for Imoen to die in the dungeon, but now that there's some real risk involved, I'd sure like to be able to cast Raise Dead on her. (And NOT have her come back from the dead, realize she's only got 1hp, and immediately leave the party and run off!)

As much as I LOVED the "Door-slamming cheese tactic" in the original Tactics Mod, I quickly adapted a new "Charming" strategy to handle the improvements made to Illyich and Crew. I have no problems with ALL doors remaining open. Besides, you can always use that to your advantage and simply lead the various members on a merry old chase. Rasputin is the only one that can outrun your characters and an Oil of Speed will handle that.

Unlike Weimer, I am of the opinion that the area of the dungeon is too large to allow the sort of communication between Ilyich & Co. anywhere near the order of perfect mental telepathy that they presently exhibit. If Zhivago is over by the door to the Plane of Air, how the hell could he know what the Golem sees over in the Crystal Room? Hence, I feel insulted by the assumption that Ilyich and crew cannot be separated, or suffer from any lack of communication. I also stand by my oh-so-frequently-stated roleplay of stationing one NPC by a door to approximate having wedged a sword blade into the crack, thus preventing an enemy--even a stronger enemy--on the other side from opening it. Therefore, while I know that the slam-the-door tactic is not essential to killing Ilyich & Co., I am very strongly in favor of allowing at least some freedom of its use.

Sounds good to me. I would love a chance to get his armor and I would accept him being made more dangerous in order to get it.

Okay, I actually did it for another reason altogether (undroppable items are inherently stupid), but your viewpoint is also quite valid.

That's an interesting idea, but how many players actually enter the sewers within the first 3 days??? Your first two encounters are likely to be the Circus and Pebblecrusher at the Seven Vales Inn ... on to the Coppor Coronet, where they will likely take out the Slaver Guards (and the Slaver Compound itself). ... Then there is the Murder Mystery in the Bridge District which will usually be one of the next quests taken.

I'm going to agree with your first point and slam you on the second. The '3 days' limitation was completely arbitrary on my part, and may be adjusted to whatever seems justified by the difficulty of the actual combat involved in Return to Ilyich. But what's with your assuming that everybody takes the quests in the exact same order in every game? The only pattern I tend to follow is that I try to run and grab the NPCs I want as quickly as possible (even if that means sneaking through some Improved Undead to get Mazzy), and avoid taking any quests until I've got the party I want (Imoen excepted, of course). And I frequently deviate from this pattern: On my first Tactics game, the very first quest I went on was the Improved de'Arnise Keep. And that was only because I asked Brus to take us to the nearest Inn (where I bumped into Nalia and was swayed by her urgency)--If I'd followed his suggestion of taking my Cavalier to the Temple District, I likely would have taken the Unseeing Eye quest first, which means--you guessed it--I'd have been in the sewers in less than a day.

That [Duergar dropping random loot] would be nice and it was something I yearned for myself when I first started running in to them. But in the end, all that is going to do is give the party a LOT more loot (and extra scrolls) that they can either use to become stronger or sell to buy better stuff with immediately after getting out.

Um....yes, that's what I'd intended, to give the party unpredictable (and therefore interesting) new options of beating Ilyich. What would he do against a Mordy's Sword, for example. Are you saying you are against this idea?

That's [reorganizing everybody's starting spell selection] a good point, but you can't accomplish the same thing by taking your 1 "Free Rest" at the beginning of the dungeon. And if you're playing a spellcaster, you have to take that "Free Rest" anyway. Still, it is a valid point and a good suggestion for those players that prefer to "hit the ground running".

I do like to "hit the ground running," as you put it, in fact, I tend to beat Ilyich without Resting at all (when I'm playing a Warrior-type, that is). But having companions that chose such obviously useless spells to memorize just strikes me as degrading and illogical. And oh yes, if you start the game in the Tutorial, you can choose your spells in there, and thus have them ready at the start of the actual game, without having to use your free rest.

Absolutely agree 100%. It's kinda sad to see such idiotic AI's on a Tactics enemy. My one complaint regarding the Duergar's are the Spawn Rate. With a full party, it's no problem. But for those that want to solo (or duo), it makes it almost impossible to clear the dungeon of all enemies. ... it just makes sense that you want to ensure there are no enemies left to sneak up on you from behind.

Well, I don't mind the Golems being that stupid, but that's because they're Golems. Any rational creature would have some thought for self-preservation, and behave in a realistic manner. I don't mind their spawn *rate*, per se, just the way they do it right in front of you--I would MUCH prefer it if they spawned well out of sight, and then wandered at random, looking for the party.

As always, I like your suggestions and especially appreciate the reasoning and logic you put into them. You always justify them in context with the game rules and settings ... and I was especially excited to see you making several suggestions regarding one of my favorite encounters in the entire game.

Thank you, sir. I endeavor to give satisfaction. [img]smile.gif[/img]