Improved Faldorn (spoilers, but who cares)

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

There's also the matter of the dark and evil rituals she used to bond herself to the grove, doing damage to nature. This implies that nature would not normally convey such protections upon a Great Druid. No, protections provided to druids most likely manifest in good old spells.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: I just hope you're not mad at Wiemer, cuz I know he does look at your input. SixOfSpades is talked about in the last Tactics ReadMe. I would not be surprised if he looked very carefully at your suggestions before the next release of Tactics. And since there have been 5 updates to Tactics in the past few months, I would assume there will be another and that he will end up toning down Faldorn.

I'm not mad at Weimer, merely disappointed that he apparently didn't take my previous Review to heart. By that I mean that yes, of course I'm aware that he's made many changes that incorporate my suggestions (I'm playing a version of Tactics that incorporates those changes, after all), but he doesn't seem to have taken the hint that perhaps his own judgement on what is and is not "fun" and "balanced" needs to be moderated a tad.

Or perhaps he released Improved Faldorn like this just so he could watch me spout off about her. [img]smile.gif[/img] I have been sharpening my tongue on the grindstone of Jaheira's heart, after all.

I will draw up a concise list of what I think would be good for Faldorn, and send it to him. He hasn't yet responded to the rebalanced Sahuagin .CREs I sent him a couple of weeks ago, but the man's only human. (Should have been a Gnome--the INT bonus is great for this sort of thing.)

Only detail I did not agree with: Six said, "Think of all the big fights in the game, and how many of them SHOULD outrank a Level 15 Druid in terms of difficulty... ...etc." Now, I do not think that a Random City Encounter SHOULD be more powerful than Faldorn! NO way. That would be saying that the Random Encounter enemies could have waltzed up to Druid's Grove and won.

The last set of Random City Encounters has 6 enemies, all of whom are pretty darn close to 3 million EXP, which is what Faldorn has. Even taken individually (but allowing them their equipment), some of them would be a match for her: She could certainly take out the Shadow Druid without much fuss, and the Conjurer would survive only a bit longer, but the Fighter and Berserker would probably beat her in a melee, and the Wizard Slayer would come close. Even the Bounty Hunter, with his Invisibility Potions, could cause her some serious pain if the size of the arena didn't prevent his Trapsetting. The 6 of them together would surely kick her ass--the only things she has in her favor is her Fire Storm, and the chance that 2 or 3 of them would fall to her Nature's Beauties (probably the same ones that would be incapacitated by her Creeping Doom). And if they could beat Improved Faldorn, imagine what they could do to a legal Level 15 Druid.

Perhaps for some reason .... you can pretend that Earth Mother granted extraordinary partisan protections to Faldorn in an effort to keep her as the leader and block you out of the Druidic hierarchy. Goes against Druidic tradition, maybe, but the time-period of the game involves numerous unusual gods-politics.

Hmmm....the Powers are forbidden from interfering directly with the whole Bhaalspawn can of worms, but I'm not sure this qualifies. But of course, if the Earth Mother didn't object to a Shadow Druid linking herself with the Grove itself, thus weakening it, why whouldn't she tolerate a Bhaalspawn?

Thanks again for your research and replies.

I endeavor to give satisfaction, sir. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Assassin: Bloody hell... I think you used almost all of the darn buffing spells in the game. =/ Except for a few.

I can't think of any important ones that I forgot....I didn't use Barkskin, because I wasn't sure if it'd "orverwrite" the Ironskin. I should test that sometime--I don't usually use Ironskins, I find Insect Plague much more useful. And I should note that quite a few of those Potions (Storm Giant Strength, Heroism, and Invulnerability, at least) are unusable by Cernd.

What I personally don't like about Improved Faldorn is that it really doesn't require any tactics. It requires pre-knowledge and knowledge more than any specific tactics.

Regrettably, that is very true. Once you know that she's immune to all the Elemental Damage a Druid can dish out, she casts Nature's Beauty, she's got multiple castings of Ironskins, and she's a melee monster, then your strategy is simple: Wait until ToB, get somebody to Improved Haste you, go Earth Elemental, and then pound her, no finesse required. Tactics? What tactics?

If Faldorn was actually intelligent, meaning she depended on a smart AI to see what spells I was using and the best means to counter them, I would respect her. But the only emotion I can hold for a creature that simply relies of cheesy immunities far beyond those available to the player (in what's supposed to be a fair fight) is sheer contempt.

Now, I'm starting to divide up battles in three sections: Before Improved Haste, after Improved Haste, and after Time Stop.

That's a darn good idea, actually.

This is the problem I have with Faldorn as well - it makes me cater my game to her.

Exactly. And pardon my bluntness, but I've got better things to do than order my game around Weimer's twisted notions of what Druids should be.

[ 07-06-2004, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

[Imrahil]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: I didn't use Barkskin, because I wasn't sure if it'd "orverwrite" the Ironskin. I should test that sometime--I don't usually use Ironskins, I find Insect Plague much more useful. And I should note that quite a few of those Potions (Storm Giant Strength, Heroism, and Invulnerability, at least) are unusable by Cernd.

FWIW, Barkskin & Ironskin will stack (Barkskin affects base AC) much like Spirit Armor & Stoneskin stack for a Mage. Druids can use a plain old Strength Potion (plus receive a further minor boost from a Mage's Strength spell), Potion of Power, & Defense/Stone Form to make up for no Giant Strength, Heroism, Invulnerability.

I used Allison, the One Day NPC, instead of Cernd, but the same things should apply despite Cernd's kit.

- Imrahil

[Assassin]

1] You can't damage her without Shapeshifting, as the Staff given can't damage her. And the forms that you do get (are they enchanted enough?) can't reliably get past her regeneration until HLAs.

2] Immune to all of the Druidic elemental spells, forcing one to use a summon or bludgeon her to death. See 1] for clarification on the need for HLAs to damage using the Druid itself. None of the other spells work reliably to damage, as even Creeping Doom bows down to her regeneration.

3] There are no summons, which, in a one-on-one battle, may beat Faldorn. This include Devas and Elemental Princes. Doesn't that just seem a bit too strong?

Now, onto tactics: 3 Decays seems to be enough to knock out whatever the heck she has on, and although the Spell Deflection animation is still on, the fourth one seems to have some effect on slowing her down. Something to test would be if slowing her down will also slow down her insane regeneration (via a spell).

ADD] I found out that Faldorn is immune to the both of the damages that Implosion deals out.

[Hank Parsons]

How about if one of Faldorn's spirit summons drops a staff that CAN hit her? So the Tactic required, would be to think of picking up a weapon from the ground (and then you'd still have to mega buffed, and still get somewhat lucky). Just an idea.

IRT Assassin "There are no summons, which, in a one-on-one battle, may beat Faldorn. This include Devas and Elemental Princes. Doesn't that just seem a bit too strong?" >> Um no, why would this be too strong? Are you saying you should be able to simply SUMMON, out of thin air, a creature which can beat the most difficult challenges of SOA?? If you could do that, then why not just summon through the whole game and not even play your character? Elemental Princes, come on they are a joke, your character could kill an ele prince any day of the week, of course a Druid master should be able to beat an Elemental Prince. If they couldn't then something would be wrong.

[Imrahil]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: How about if one of Faldorn's spirit summons drops a staff that CAN hit her? So the Tactic required, would be to think of picking up a weapon from the ground (and then you'd still have to mega buffed, and still get somewhat lucky). Just an idea.

Why would a Spirit Animal be carrying a Staff? Particularly one that could damage its summoner?

IRT Assassin "There are no summons, which, in a one-on-one battle, may beat Faldorn. This include Devas and Elemental Princes. Doesn't that just seem a bit too strong?" >> Um no, why would this be too strong? Are you saying you should be able to simply SUMMON, out of thin air, a creature which can beat the most difficult challenges of SOA??

No. I believe what many of us are saying is that Faldorn shouldn't be one of the most difficult challenges of SOA. Incidently, anyone know how a Deva (much less a Planetar) fares one-on-one vs. some of the other SoA bosses?

If you could do that, then why not just summon through the whole game and not even play your character?

If you felt like resting often enough, then you could pretty much do that. It's even part of the reason Sorcerers are so insanely powerful.

Elemental Princes, come on they are a joke, your character could kill an ele prince any day of the week, of course a Druid master should be able to beat an Elemental Prince. If they couldn't then something would be wrong.

Not true - try sending Cernd by himself to fight Ogremach in Sendai's Enclave in ToB. Bet you a dollar he gets crushed.

- Imrahil

EDIT: stupid spelling mistake

[ 07-06-2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Imrahil ]

[Assassin]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: IRT Assassin "There are no summons, which, in a one-on-one battle, may beat Faldorn. This include Devas and Elemental Princes. Doesn't that just seem a bit too strong?" >> Um no, why would this be too strong? Are you saying you should be able to simply SUMMON, out of thin air, a creature which can beat the most difficult challenges of SOA?? If you could do that, then why not just summon through the whole game and not even play your character? Elemental Princes, come on they are a joke, your character could kill an ele prince any day of the week, of course a Druid master should be able to beat an Elemental Prince. If they couldn't then something would be wrong.

... So, in your reasoning, any decently difficult challenge has to be able to beat an Elemental Prince and a Deva one-on-one? This is just my opinion, but I think that the game designers designed the HLAs to be viable throughout ToB. They're now suddenly castrated in SoA? I shudder to think what kind of challenges you think ToB should have. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It is a viable strategy with a Totemic Druid/Cleric combination to waste the entire early and even a bit of the middle game with Spirit Animals/Fire Elementals/Aerial Servants. Just Haste them, follow a step behind, and waste. Mages fall to Insect Plague before they can Death Spell them, and nothing can really last that long against that combination early/middle game.

How about if one of Faldorn's spirit summons drops a staff that CAN hit her? So the Tactic required, would be to think of picking up a weapon from the ground (and then you'd still have to mega buffed, and still get somewhat lucky). Just an idea.

How about just remove that bloody permanent Mantle? You'll still have a job getting past the Regeneration.

No. I believe what many of us are saying is that Faldorn shouldn't be one of the most difficult challenges of SOA. Incidently, anyone know how a Deva (much less a Planetar) fares one-on-one vs. some of the other SoA bosses?

... Faldorn's battle is a lot different than the other SoA bosses. It requires a Druid, and it's one-on-one, without any equipment. All of the other bosses allow the whole party, with all of their equipment. You can't compare them.

I'm just saying that Faldorn is a SoA battle, so let it be beatable with SoA abilities and with a Druid under the SoA experience cap without any mods and without needing to reload 2 dozen times just to get her to fail her save or something. None of this bloody nonesense of having to use some 5 million experience warrior with a HLA.

[ 07-06-2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[Imrahil]

Originally posted by Assassin: Faldorn's battle is a lot different than the other SoA bosses. It requires a Druid, and it's one-on-one, without any equipment. All of the other bosses allow the whole party, with all of their equipment. You can't compare them.

I certainly don't dispute this - I was just interested in how a Deva (or a Planetar or a Deva + Greater Elemental, etc.) would fare against the other SoA bosses, since I've never conducted the tests myself. I wonder how they'd do against Lavok, or Mae'Var, or Big Red, or the Umar Hills bad guy(s), or TorGal, etc. (all stronghold quest bad guys - another thing to consider about Faldorn - Druids now get screwed out of the Grove quests unless they waste a ton of game time after finally beating her).

It just stands to reason that if the HLA Summons do well (or even win) against the current stronghold bad guys, where you could, if you chose to, have them + a well-equipped party, then they should (theoretically at least) do equally well against Faldorn, where you have no party & no equipment.

- Imrahil

[SixOfSpades]

The first order of business is to make the Improved Druid Grove and Improved Faldorn into separate components of Tactics.

What I'd Like To See In Improved Faldorn:

• Forget all this "entire party pre-buffs the party Druid" crap, let's just have a straight fight of Druid vs. Druid. That means purple-circling (as in "The Transformation and the Dream" sequence or Round 2 of Improved Irenicus) the rest of the party, as well as any Summons, during the fight.
• Step 2 of the same vein involves removing all pre-buffs from the party Druid, to disallow things like Storm Giant Strength and Improved Haste. As soon as the challenge is issued, the party gets purple-circled, then the challenger gets hit with Spellstrike, Breach, and an Inquisitor's Dispel.
• Both combatants are then given free castings of Barkskin, Ironskins, Bless, Armor of Faith, Resist Fire/Cold, Strength of One, Magic Resistance, Death Ward, and Defensive Harmony, each of which is cast at their own level--so a Level 13 Druid would have weaker castings of Ironskins, Magic Resistance, Armor of Faith, etc., than Faldorn would, and would also be likely to be stripped naked if Faldorn were to cast Dispel Magic. Faldorn also has "Summon Dread Wolves" cast for her at the start of combat.
• Faldorn is given a Staff of Thunder and Lightning, a normal Sling, and 80 normal Bullets. The challenger is given a Staff and Sling (with Bullets) as Quick Weapons, and a Scimitar, Spear, Dagger, Club, and 80 Darts in Inventory. All of these weapons are Normal.
• In BG1, Faldorn's stats are 12/15/11/10/16/15, so let's say that she consumed all of the famous Tomes, and her BG2 stats are now 13/16/12/11/19/16. In addition, her THAC0, AC, and Saving Throws are all 2 points better than would be legal, she has 12 extra hitpoints, and an ApR of 2 in her Human form.
• Faldorn has no other free buffs or resistances, apart from being immune to Nature's Beauty--which she does NOT cast.
• Faldorn may not cast spells while Shapeshifted.
• In her current version, Improved Faldorn picked Summon Fallen Deva as her HLA, and she has it memorized. I suggest either Globe of Blades, Aura of Flaming Death, or Storm of Vengeance instead.

Weimer must personally beat the Rebalanced Faldorn with a Level 14 Druid (any kit except the Overbalanced Shapeshifter, and no Fighter component) before she can be considered truly fit for release.

Opinions?

---

It's true that allowing the challenger to retain his/her equipment is pretty much the only way of letting past experiences benefit you (since pure Druids do not gain levels in SoA), but that presents one hell of a power imbalance: If the party Druid is allowed to use Pitchwife, Fulcrum, or Water's Talon, it's pretty much Game Over for Faldorn, even her current version. Even the Dagger of Venom is capable of rendering her completely helpless. So I opted for the "low-key" equipment setup, to shift the focus back on the combatants themselves.

Personally, given my experiences of
A) There not being any weapons on the ground at all, and
B) Faldorn being immune to the one I hacked in,
I'm wondering what the heck is going on between my game and the one with that Kensai(12)->Druid who beat Faldorn to death with his Grandmastery in Staves.

[ 07-07-2004, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

[Hank Parsons]

Great thread. Glad to see no one got too upset if I played the Faldorn's Advocate for a bit. On the whole I agree with Six's recommendations and the need to tone this down. I just wanted to make the point about challenges existing in the world that are greater than the PC.

In the interest of full disclosure, of course, I have never come close to beating Improved Faldorn legally. I was going to leave the grove and chalk her up to an unbeatable enemy. But I ended up going back and winning with tons of cheese (Cntrl-R and Cntrl-J were used, but not Cntrl-Y) - not what I normally do.

Frankly, I would prefer a Faldorn who is beatable legitly. Do it Weimer!