Six's Review of the Tactics MOD (Tactics Spoilers Galore)

[Dundee Slaytern]

PfNMissiles will not protect you from the Sahuagin bolts. PfMWeapons will though. Ah heck, just wear the Ring of Free Action and maybe a Fortress Shield if you want to minimise the cheese factor. Belt of Inertial Barrier helps too with the Missile Damage Resistance, as too will Stoneskin.

In other news, I have completed editing the SThief AI Script for Improved Ilyich. Any takers?

[Dundee Slaytern]

Before I go to sleep, here is the link to the modified AI Script.

Click Here.

There are 2 files in the .zip file. One is a .bcs file which should go into your override folder. The other is a .baf file which you can read using any text editor if you want to see how the script works.

FFFFFF">You can read the original .baf file in the following folder.

C:\Program Files\Black Isle\BGII - SoA\tactics2\ilyich

Use Wordpad.

The only "cheat" I left in is the Assassin's Poison Weapon ability that the Shadow Thieves get for free when they spawn.

The wands that spawn with them now have 3 charges each. Instead of once a round, the SThieves will now attempt to use it once every two rounds. Note that they will use up all the charges if given enough time, so kill them fast if you want the wand(s).

Slight rearrangement of the code blocks so that more priority is given to self preservation.

Instead of solely targetting the nearest target, the SThief will check the second nearest target as well.

The SThief's physical combat has the following priority,

• Any hostile that is helpless and has less than 50% HP
• Any hostile that is helpless
• Ah heck, just whack-whack patty-whack the nearest hostile

SThieves will now attempt to actually Stealth when no hostiles are present, instead of miraculously turning invisible.

Players can no longer abuse the cheese where a player charms a SThief, switch his weapon to a fist, use him to punch other enemies, and when he turns hostile again, flails aimlessly at the player with his bare fists... The SThief will now always equip his Long Sword when attacking anything in melee.

Comments welcome.

[Lord]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: PfNMissiles will not protect you from the Sahuagin bolts. PfMWeapons will though. Ah heck, just wear the Ring of Free Action and maybe a Fortress Shield if you want to minimise the cheese factor. Belt of Inertial Barrier helps too with the Missile Damage Resistance, as too will Stoneskin. In other news, I have completed editing the SThief AI Script for Improved Ilyich. Any takers?

Stoneskin won't do you much good. You could potentially be protected from 10 hits, but at the rate at which you're shot at, you'd have to cast stoneskin every single round. IIRC, Six wrote that they have a APR of 4.5, right? If you decide to not be cheesey and not lure them out 1 by 1, then you go in say you get hit by 2 or 3 of the first 4 attacks on you per round, but that will be from just one Sahuagin. In the first round, you'd have already lost your stoneskin, or you'll be pretty damn near close to it. No, you'd need PfMW instead, that suggestion will work fine.

[Xen]

I wonder if Weimer&CO. will actually keep in mind suggested changes and changed the mods. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[Lord]

Originally posted by Xen: I wonder if Weimer&CO. will actually keep in mind suggested changes and changed the mods. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

That is, will Weimer and Co even see the webpage?

[Lord]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: quote: Originally posted by Lord: Six even mentioned that he gave one of the mods a lower mark because it didn't allow something for a lower level party that rushes to spell hold to get through with out a lot of difficulty. Or else I could just come back later with 3 or 4 million xp and wipe the smile off of their faces [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

Let us set the record straight on something first.

Six rushed to Spellhold with a party. This is understandable.

You rushed a soloist. This is suicidal. [/QUOTE]Dundee, my only point was that it's unreasonable to make the Kangaxx Guardian fight tougher than the Guarded Compound, that's all .

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Lord: quote: Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: PfNMissiles will not protect you from the Sahuagin bolts. PfMWeapons will though. Ah heck, just wear the Ring of Free Action and maybe a Fortress Shield if you want to minimise the cheese factor. Belt of Inertial Barrier helps too with the Missile Damage Resistance, as too will Stoneskin. In other news, I have completed editing the SThief AI Script for Improved Ilyich. Any takers?

Stoneskin won't do you much good. You could potentially be protected from 10 hits, but at the rate at which you're shot at, you'd have to cast stoneskin every single round. IIRC, Six wrote that they have a APR of 4.5, right? If you decide to not be cheesey and not lure them out 1 by 1, then you go in say you get hit by 2 or 3 of the first 4 attacks on you per round, but that will be from just one Sahuagin. In the first round, you'd have already lost your stoneskin, or you'll be pretty damn near close to it. No, you'd need PfMW instead, that suggestion will work fine. [/QUOTE]Stoneskin will not protect from STR drain. You die anyway.

[Link]

It's a nice review alright, Six, and you got me reading for like an hour or so. I can't say that much about how you're wrong or right, because I haven't played the Tactics MOD to that extension (started off but never really got the hang of it). Nevertheless I do think you're being harsh on them. Unnecessarily harsh.

[Assassin]

Link, I hold the same point of view as you. Some things could've been said in a different way than to make it sound like you're bashing weimer.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Lord: I can't hide in the shadows since they're hostile in there, so I drink a potion of invisibility. Then I prepare to stand behind the dwarf, ready to make a backstab. However, the dwarf won't budge, and his back is to the wall. He only moves once he's got a target. So I go to the fighter to backstab, only to have a lich cast time stop and then trigger a continency of 2 or 3 ADHW. WTF is up with that?

To me, that sounds almost as if they don't attack you until you break Invisiblity--I wonder if it's true? If so, you didn't need to attack them at all, you could just walk by & visit everyone's favorite Demilich without even bothering those guys.

Thankfully, a very reasonable roleplaying move--"Send the Stealthed Thief in first, to scout the place out"--also works extremely well from a powerplaying standpoint in this situation. By poking your head through the door, seeing a pair of Liches and their cronies, and then fleeing in terror, you not only neutralize their "Enemy Sighted" contingencies but also draw some of the bad guys out the door after you, allowing you to deal with them piecemeal. (And those tha can see through Invisibility cannot run fast.)

Dundee is quite right about the difference between Caedmon rushing to Spellhold and your Assassin rushing to the Ring of Gaxx: MODders need to account for rush-to-Spellhold parties, as no one has the right to effectively *prevent* your rescuing Imoen as quickly as possible. But MODders are under no obligation whatsoever to ensure that all encounters can be easily beaten (or even beaten at all) by Soloists of all classes, especially those still under the SoA EXP cap, and especially those still in Chapters 2/3.

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: The only debatable hostile for Kangaxx's Guardians is the vorpal ability of the Dwarf.

And the Dwarf himself--what with his 18 DEX and his base ApR of 4.


Concerning Wands of Polymorphing: I have never seen them work, whether in BG1 or BG2. They don't even have the right range: The Description specifies a range of about 30 feet, but whenever I try to use the Wand, my character has to walk right up to the target first. I always feel relieved when I see that a Shadow Thief has warped in with a Poly wand, because I know that he won't be able to do a dang thing to me besides his single Backstab.
Wands of Polymorphing and Fear--I know I'm safe.
Wands of Paralyzation and Frost--I know I'm screwed.
Improved Ilyich is a snap if you just keep Reloading until the Thieves have the Wands you like.

Originally posted by Xen: So what`s with the Shield Of Balduran effect? Six reported it that he thinked that it doesn`t work and I reported that I know it doesn`t work.

The README states that it removes the cheese by scripting all Beholderkin to not use their rays on somebody wearing the Shield. When I said that there might still be some cheese remaining, I was implying that somebody might carry the Shield in his Backpack, thus gaining "immunity" to Beholder rays by virtue of their not wanting to fire at him, while enjoying the benefits of whatever he might actually be holding in his offhand, including much better shields such as Sentinel or perhaps Improved Delryn.
When you say "I know it doesn't work," what exactly do you mean?

Originally posted by Assassin: [Regarding using PfMW against the Sahuagin] It's not that much slower than the Reflection method. Usually, you'll have a couple of spellcasters, right? Each, with... assuming 3 level 6 spell slots. That's 6 groups of Sahaguin per rest, which isn't that bad.

2 Wizards with 3 Level 6 slots apiece would require Nalia and Imoen to be Level 16, with at least 2.25 million EXP each. Nope, when Caedmon arrived there, he was less than half that experienced. Our only applicable Anti-Sahuagin spell was Physical Mirror, and Anomen & Jaheira had only 2 or 3 slots between them.

That would mean 800 000 to 1 200 000. Let's take the middle ground and choose 1 000 000 experience. Divide that up among 5 party members.... 200 000 experience each. That's quite a lot. Okay, maybe 100 000 experience for each, but 200 000 to 300 000 each...

Oh, you're calculating the EXP of the 4 Duergar Patrollers added together. EXP doesn't work that way; if Ilyich and Company each had about 1 million EXP apiece (and they do, except for Zhivago), would you rather fight them, or a single Dwarven Fighter with *6* million EXP? Me, I would take Ilyich any day.

QUOTE]There are three [scrolls of Time Stop] in an unmodded game: Vitaly (mage in the Underdark), Sulanessalar, and Ribald afterwards. If you do the Lich in the Docks, you'll probably net about 2 more. Imoen/Nalia going the route that you mentioned could probably do that in 5 Time Stops...[/QUOTE]Looks like somebody needs to read the answer keys to the SoA Trivia Quizzes again. [img]tongue.gif[/img] There are a maximum of five scrolls obtainable before the final battle. Frau Blücher has always dropped only one scroll for me (and I don't recall seeing any more in her Inventory in SK), so that berings the total to 6. And if you use all your Time Stops on the Wraith, that deprives you of using the same valuable weapon against Irenicus, and it's even more important against him.

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I have completed editing the SThief AI Script for Improved Ilyich. The only "cheat" I left in is the Assassin's Poison Weapon ability that the Shadow Thieves get for free when they spawn. The wands that spawn with them now have 3 charges each. Instead of once a round, the SThieves will now attempt to use it once every two rounds. Note that they will use up all the charges if given enough time, so kill them fast if you want the wand(s). Slight rearrangement of the code blocks so that more priority is given to self preservation. SThieves will now attempt to actually Stealth when no hostiles are present, instead of miraculously turning invisible. Players can no longer abuse the cheese where a player charms a SThief, switch his weapon to a fist, use him to punch other enemies, and when he turns hostile again, flails aimlessly at the player with his bare fists... The SThief will now always equip his Long Sword when attacking anything in melee.

Sounds kickass! Hey...wait...is that the rumble of a new version of Tactics I hear on the horizon?

Originally posted by Lord: That is, will Weimer and Co even see the webpage?

I have notified Weimer, Kensai Ryu, Gebhard Blucher, and SimDong0 via Email, and Sim at least has written back. Maybe I should draw Kevin Dorner's attention to this, as well--he had nothing to do with Tactics, of course, but his position as a mediator might be welcome.

Originally posted by Lord: ....my only point was that it's unreasonable to make the Kangaxx Guardian fight tougher than the Guarded Compound, that's all.

The Kangaxx Guardians are a war party: A group of people(?) there for the specific purpose of killing Kangaxx and taking the Ring. The Guarded Compond crew, in comparison, are just some dudes (tough, high-ranking dudes, but dudes nonetheless) defending their company headquarters from burglars.

Originally posted by Leslie: Stoneskin will not protect from STR drain. You die anyway.

Who cares about the STR drain, save me from Stun. Stun = Death against any kind of respectable enemy, and the Sahuagin are scripted to (a) Look for Wizards or anybody else with poor Saves, and (b) Ignore everything else if there's a Stunned target they can attack. This sort of "Kamikaze attrition, self-preservation be damned" attitude is common to pretty much all areas of the game, sadly. (Bodhi: "I'm going to make sure you kill every single one of my followers before I'll even think about facing you myself.")

Originally posted by Link: It's a nice review alright, Six. I can't say that much about how you're wrong or right, because I haven't played the Tactics MOD to that extension (started off but never really got the hang of it). Nevertheless I do think you're being harsh on them. Unnecessarily harsh.

This is true. There were some parts of Tactics with which I disagreed so strongly that I felt a simple notation of my disapproval ("I do not think Improved Irenicus should be able to have infinite spells") would not have conveyed the frustration and aggravation I suffered. Therefore, I adopted a more provoking approach ("Uhh---Infinite spells? Hel-LOOO!?!") in order to ensure that the creator of each component would know exactly how I felt. And I think I can say with confidence that those components that got ranted at truly deserved it: I have every right to bitch about the Small Teeth Pass.
Besides, as recent posts have shown, even Dundee is not immune to losing his cool over certain facets of Tactics. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Assassin: Some things could've been said in a different way than to make it sound like you're bashing weimer.

Doubtless, but see above. And it would help to have specific examples--could you post the quote that you think best represents me going overboard, so we can judge if what I said actually deserves to have been said?
To further my defense, I should point out that Weimer is very familiar with my views on powergaming and the Tactics MOD, and yet has repeatedly said that he welcomed hearing what I had to say.


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On my own account, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned my funky-ass bugs yet. No one finds it just a trifle odd that Kangaxx refuses to die? I was expecting people to remark that my faulty installation could hardly produce a Review that could be held as truly valid--I can't exactly accuse Kensai Ryu of cheating his Vorpal Dwarf an illegal DEX point when my computer spontaneously produces bugs like people having 45 proficiency points in Sling, now, can I?

And now you all know why I don't write MODs--I can barely play them.

[ 02-19-2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]