Sorceror vs cleric mage...let the rumble begin!!!

[Userunfriendly]

Its time to put it into a formal debate..

which is more powerful, in a straight up rumble???

assume identical xp, and most importantly, NO TIMESTOP!!! if we let in timestop, who ever casts it first wins.

say under 3 million xp, i would say the sorceror would win, hands down. faster level progression, reach higher level spells than the cleric mage. over 3 million, i would say the cleric mage, since a chain contingency of triple summon deva, or implosion is hard to beat. on the other hand, a triple abi dahzim is also hard to beat...

let the battles begin!!!

[LennonCook]

BEnefits of a C/M over a Sorc:
- Cleric HLAs in Chain Continguency, and other Cleric spells triggers.
- Skeleton Warriors, Devas, Aerial Servants, Fire Elementals. These are all Cleric spells, which means the Mage side can focus on other spells.
- Dispel Magic is also a Cleric Spell, again allowing the Mage side to focus on other things.
- Same with True Sight.
- Legitimate, permanant, 25 Strength.
- More benefits than Wish from high Wisdom.
- Turn any hostile Skeletons.
- Clones give more Cleric spells, too...
- Pro Evil 10' Radius.

Benefits of a Sorc over a C/M:
- Decide what to cast in battle rather than beforehand.


Conclusion: C/M has FAR more going for them.

[ 01-31-2004, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: LennonCook ]

[Userunfriendly]

i personally think if both cleric mage and sorceror have low amounts of xp (identical of course) the sorceror will beat the cleric mage. low level combat is decided on by sunfire, magic missile, feeblemind, and cone of cold...or melf, for example. its not until we get to the higher levels that the really big guns come out and play...the cleric mage has a large gap in the middle ranges, where the sorceror can chain contingency abi dazims, and the cleric mage can't...course, once the cleric mage has chain contingency, game over...one cast, and a breach, implosion and implosion, all over...

now the best of both worlds is a sorceror who can cast cleric spells...OW!!!

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Are we allowed Contingencies? How about Spell Trigger? How many rounds to prep?

[Userunfriendly]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Are we allowed Contingencies? How about Spell Trigger? How many rounds to prep?

both sides are allowed all contingencies, with overnight rest so you can load up...

no prebuffing allowed...this would duplicate the standard ambush a player would find where he/she does not know the area, or its a mod they've never played before...i mean most spell casters prepare a bunch of prebuffing spells loaded up before hitting a new area anyway...right?

all buffing must be done during battle, or loaded up in your contingencies, sequencers...

the only spell not allowed is timestop, for obvious reasons...

[Assassin]

BEnefits of a C/M over a Sorc: - Cleric HLAs in Chain Continguency, and other Cleric spells triggers. - Skeleton Warriors, Devas, Aerial Servants, Fire Elementals. These are all Cleric spells, which means the Mage side can focus on other spells. - Dispel Magic is also a Cleric Spell, again allowing the Mage side to focus on other things. - Same with True Sight. - Legitimate, permanant, 25 Strength. - More benefits than Wish from high Wisdom. - Turn any hostile Skeletons. - Clones give more Cleric spells, too... - Pro Evil 10' Radius. Benefits of a Sorc over a C/M: - Decide what to cast in battle rather than beforehand.

Quite of few of these don't even really change the battle at all.

For example, the Pro Evil 10' radius. Who uses Demons anyways? And they're pansies compared to Planetar. Turn Skeletons? Summon Monsters? All neglieble with a simple Death Spell. Strenght doesn't really matter if you can't hit the Sorcerer, and a Sorcerer can get a high Wisdom as easily as a C/M. Remove Magic, in a battle like this, is better than Dispel Magic, and both sides have True Sight. However, the one thing that makes a C/M shine in comparison to other Clerics is the fact that their Cleric Spells are also speeded up by the Robe of Vecna. Very useful, that.

You forgot one thing for Sorcerers: Their flexibility in using clones. Perhaps the biggest thing going for them, it allows a Sorcerer to summon up a PI and have it summons Planetar(s) and Mordy Swords, while allowing the real Sorcerer to still cast Mordy Swords himself, or draw down a Comet.

Well, now to the real combat:

Implosion may Stun the Sorcerer, yes, and do some blunt damage. However, it probably won't be doing any Fire damage from the Protection spells put on by the Sorcerer. Or, a simple Mislead could cause it to go astray, hitting the clone instead of the Sorcerer. A question: Will Mirror Image/Cloak of Cheese block Implosion?

How about equipment? Will said opponents be allowed to use the Boots of Preservation? Will they be allowed to use the Cloak of Cheese?

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Assassin: quote: BEnefits of a C/M over a Sorc: - Cleric HLAs in Chain Continguency, and other Cleric spells triggers. - Skeleton Warriors, Devas, Aerial Servants, Fire Elementals. These are all Cleric spells, which means the Mage side can focus on other spells. - Dispel Magic is also a Cleric Spell, again allowing the Mage side to focus on other things. - Same with True Sight. - Legitimate, permanant, 25 Strength. - More benefits than Wish from high Wisdom. - Turn any hostile Skeletons. - Clones give more Cleric spells, too... - Pro Evil 10' Radius. Benefits of a Sorc over a C/M: - Decide what to cast in battle rather than beforehand.

Quite of few of these don't even really change the battle at all.

For example, the Pro Evil 10' radius. Who uses Demons anyways? And they're pansies compared to Planetar. Turn Skeletons? Summon Monsters? All neglieble with a simple Death Spell. Strenght doesn't really matter if you can't hit the Sorcerer, and a Sorcerer can get a high Wisdom as easily as a C/M. Remove Magic, in a battle like this, is better than Dispel Magic, and both sides have True Sight. However, the one thing that makes a C/M shine in comparison to other Clerics is the fact that their Cleric Spells are also speeded up by the Robe of Vecna. Very useful, that.

You forgot one thing for Sorcerers: Their flexibility in using clones. Perhaps the biggest thing going for them, it allows a Sorcerer to summon up a PI and have it summons Planetar(s) and Mordy Swords, while allowing the real Sorcerer to still cast Mordy Swords himself, or draw down a Comet.

Well, now to the real combat:

Implosion may Stun the Sorcerer, yes, and do some blunt damage. However, it probably won't be doing any Fire damage from the Protection spells put on by the Sorcerer. Or, a simple Mislead could cause it to go astray, hitting the clone instead of the Sorcerer. A question: Will Mirror Image/Cloak of Cheese block Implosion?

How about equipment? Will said opponents be allowed to use the Boots of Preservation? Will they be allowed to use the Cloak of Cheese? [/QUOTE]Mirror Image will block Implosion, but the cloak will not. Could be interesting to note that even with Protection from Fire activated, a triple Implosion will still deal 30-300 points of crushing damage, 15-150 if you make all three saves.

With no prebuffing allowed, save for setting up your contingencies, I bet the fight would be over the instant the C/M's 3x Implosion CC goes off, assuming enough experience for the C/M to actually have level 9 spells.

[Assassin]

30-300, yes; but most high-level mages will make those saves. Not to mention that you could also get more than 100 FR, which would allow you to heal from the Fire Damage, further lowering the Blunt damage done.

I hold to the fact that a Mirror Image/Mislead /Protection from Fire combination will block most of the Implosion. If he decides to use True Sight in that CC, then he will have to target it on himself, meaning that I'm spared the Implosion damage.

I wonder which will be set off first...

[Bill26]

Since they will both be using "the staff" and cloak of non detection, they will never meet and never fight.

[Assassin]

Actually, IIRC, CC targets Invisible targets... [img]smile.gif[/img]