A dilemma of an ethcial nature

[decookie]

Alloah,

Whilst pondering the nature of existence, the best way to confuse a Lich and the merits of sharp pointy objects, I struck upon a dilemma. Two of my comrades have developed the ability to ascertain the alignments of all; from the noblest to the most dastardly. And so my dilemma is this:

As a group greatly concerned with righting the wrongs of the world and justice for all, without adhering to bureaucratic doctrines or outdated laws, we are perplexed. If the party’s magic can ascertain that an individual is evil, of the most rotten kind, then would it be justice to cull that person then and there? After all would it be correct to assume that one who was evilly inclined would surely commit evil deeds… or might they just think them? Do only evil people commit evil deeds?

I had always learned to judge people on their actions, but in the event of meeting an individual for the first what does one do? Is slaying ever justifiable on alignment alone? Allas, neither I nor my party can see a clear cut answer, but I would be pleased if you, my friends, could help shed some light on the subject. I feel like a kobold caught between a bear and lion. Which way to turn?

Yours perplexedly

Ingo Amaral (Ranger of repute and ethical adventurer)

[Pyrenk]

You must remember that certain evil people commit evil deeds because they believe them to be good. Chaotic Evil characters should be destroyed on the spot, but the other two can be reasoned with. However, as you don't know the exact alignment...you figure it out You can use the Equalizer to test alignment, if you want. If it does max damage, then you should proceed slashing the person in question. If not...run [img]smile.gif[/img]

Second. Neutral people can commit evil deeds as well-they don't have a preference. Chaotic Neutral characters should be destroyed along with the Chaotic Evil, though.

And regarding the kobold...the lion and bear only cut two directions off [img]smile.gif[/img] Run the other way...die like a coward

[decookie]

But Alass,

For the metaphor to work, in true dungeon style, the kobold encounters the lion and the bear in a corridor. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But is chaotic evil really any worse than, lawful evil? Should I be punishing intent or actions? Lawful evil characters have as much bad intent as chaotic ones (maybe more?) they just choose different ways t persue it. And as my character is Chaotic perhaps i should be more inclined to punish the lawful charcter?

[Borg]

The way I figure, if you are "a group greatly concerned with righting the wrongs of the world and justice for all", then if you identify someone that you know is evil, whether by thought or deed, you should carve them to bits. I mean, if they are only thinking evil thoughts now, they will turn into action later for sure.

Now, if you are led by my Chaotic Evil Assassin in my current party, I would backstab your spell slinger before he could get his defenses up and while casting Know Alignment! -- Jerk should know better than to test me [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Pyrenk]

Originally posted by decookie: But Alass, For the metaphor to work, in true dungeon style, the kobold encounters the lion and the bear in a corridor. [img]smile.gif[/img] But is chaotic evil really any worse than, lawful evil? Should I be punishing intent or actions? Lawful evil characters have as much bad intent as chaotic ones (maybe more?) they just choose different ways t persue it. And as my character is Chaotic perhaps i should be more inclined to punish the lawful charcter?

1. Then the Kobold jumps over one, and watches them fight over the kill While they do this, he summons his friends (with arrows), and kills the weakened one that remains. Of course, Kobolds are shmucks, so the lion, who is naturally faster than the bear, steals the Kobold and runs.

2. If your character is chaotic, then you punish the lawful. However, lawful evil characters aren't as likely to commit evil deeds as chaotic evil characters, because those actions are illegal

[decookie]

But the punishment should surely fit the crime. Would execution by my blade be justice for an evil character who only picks people's pockets? Surely that would not be "justice for all".

I suppose it depends whether you treat alignment as a 'tendency' towards certain behaviours or a concrete indicator of their future behaviour.

In some ways the concept of alignment is flawed, as those carrying it out must, to an extent, see their actions as 'right'. Thus alignment is a social construction and not an innate trait - so how can it be deemed 'good' or 'evil'.

This was my friend's argument for creating a chaotic evil palladin who slaughtered all in his path in the belief that he was doing 'good'. As DM I argued against him on the basis that an 'evil' paladin who be way too hard, after loosing the only real restriction they have. Perhaps he would have liked an 'unholy sword +5' - might be a good opponent to fight against eh?

[Pyrenk]

I have already stated that evil characters commit evil deeds in the belief that they are good [img]smile.gif[/img]

Unholy Reavers are great. They are used by Anti-Paladins, however...there already is an evil Paladin class. It's under Fighter, though, and part of a mod.

[decookie]

Sorry Pyrenk, just spotted it [img]smile.gif[/img] . Does that mean detect alignment spells should never return an 'evil' result - although it could indicate whether or not they are 'wrestling with their conscience'?

[Pyrenk]

Well, it should specify their actual alignment (Lawful, Chaotic, Neutral included), and if they are truly evil or not [img]smile.gif[/img]

[teardropmina]

well...I think killing for "intent" sounds only right if you roleplay a lawful good character who determines to vanquish all the evils in fauren...and one who NEVER has any moment of "weakness" when she/he has "evil" thoughts.

also...in your group (suppose you're not soloing), you should not have TN character such as Jaheira, for they believe in that evil and good (intent as well as deeds) are NECESSARY to the being and becoming of the world.

also...to look at the big picture, what's the END of this evil vanquishing business? if the END is to get rid of all evils, and if somehow it can be done, in the end, there'll be no evil to reflect good, then how do you know you're good anymore? or is that because this evil vanquishing business can NEVER be done and so we can contiune to kill evil doers (or/and evil "thinkers") for we know there're always evil beings to reflect that we're good?

I myself like to play TN character because it's more close to my own personal perspective. Evil thoughts are always lurking somewhere beneath~~