Magic

[Mojo]

I realise that this sounds like a shallow argument, but I lack the eloquence of some Ironworkers....

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: The Bible says even the most sinful man will be allowed into heaven if he truely repents his sin and accepts Christ and loves god.

My argument is simply this; why bother trying to be good then? You have a strictly religious person, who denys himself many of the pleasures that are regarded sin, has no fun in his life (possibly), and he goes to Heaven. On the other hand, you have someone who did what he liked, but then regretted it when he died. He also goes to Heaven. Who got the better deal?

Also, (and I may be wrong on this) but aren't the Catholic Last Rites basically cleanse you of all sins, yeah? So you could be a mass-murdering paedophile, but then you are close to death and are given the Last Rites....you go to Heaven.

I realise I know not a lot about what I speak, I'm hoping someone can enlighten or simply correct me...

[Mellagar]

The 9/11 was used primarily as an example. It was to demonstrate exactly what many have answered with their replies.
Thoran comparing it with his 4:56, along with slicer's emergency number, Uri, whoever they may be.

So as far as belief, religion, and supernatural goes it alters into so many different directions there can be no definitive path.

[slicer15]

Mojo, you have to repent before you die. You can be a mass-murdering paedohpile, but still become a proper Christian, a I mean a true, practicing Christian who believes Christ saved him. Now, how does he get away with that? He doesn't. In the bible it also says somewhere that no sin goes unpunished. If you sin, you will get punished. Be it in life, or after death, you will recieve punishment for your sins. But if you truly repent and feel terrible for what you did, you can still get forgiven. Remember, everytime you sin, it hurts God. He feels the pain of a loved child spitting in His face.

Once again, my opinions on the matter. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Mojo]

Ahh, does that mean that if you sin and then truly regret it, your own guilt will be your punishment?

Moving on a bit....what about people who have serious mental disorders, who don't even know the difference between right and wrong?

[Mellagar]

Originally posted by Mojo: I realise that this sounds like a shallow argument, but I lack the eloquence of some Ironworkers.... quote: Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: The Bible says even the most sinful man will be allowed into heaven if he truely repents his sin and accepts Christ and loves god.

My argument is simply this; why bother trying to be good then? You have a strictly religious person, who denys himself many of the pleasures that are regarded sin, has no fun in his life (possibly), and he goes to Heaven. On the other hand, you have someone who did what he liked, but then regretted it when he died. He also goes to Heaven. Who got the better deal?

Also, (and I may be wrong on this) but aren't the Catholic Last Rites basically cleanse you of all sins, yeah? So you could be a mass-murdering paedophile, but then you are close to death and are given the Last Rites....you go to Heaven.

I realise I know not a lot about what I speak, I'm hoping someone can enlighten or simply correct me... [/QUOTE]Often times being blunt is more effective than being quaint. To be blunt, I might say that religion strips one of any and all responsibility. What I always found interesting is that people built monolithic cathedrals, grand chapels, majestic synagogues, and yet, I have yet to see my cats constructing dug out temples, or my parrot singing the Rosemary, or my dog blessing herself with holy hydrant water. Are they not creatures of god? Yet they do not pray, nor build stations of worship.

Are we the evolution of nature, or the devolution of religion?

Also another observation I've made, though many will frown upon this. In comparison, how many much blood has been shed in the name of "god/christ," and how much in the name of "the devil"? You could say devil worshippers perform sacrifices, and such, while the crusades and witch trials were open killings. What I question is, does slaughter, hidden or public, change anything?
What people lack today is the most basic of all beliefs, common sense.
Question, for a moment, what would happen if religions, gods and goddesses were left within the pages of history books. The middle east would be one of the most profitable lands on the planet. Religious fanatics who murder non-believers would be no more. Fear of some great being that might destroy us would be only a nightmare cured by a glass of warm milk. Most striking is the realization that if religion never carried on, there would still be two towers standing and 3,000 people would still be arguing over the traffic where people cut us off without using turning signals. Call it terrorism if you must, but what was used as the spark?
Those who do not question cease to understand.

[Stormymystic]

I see 9/11 almost everyday, i have even had clocks stop on that time, i went into labor, not had but into labor with my second child on 9/11 2000 she was born one month later to the day

[Earthdog]

I admit right off the bat that I have not read Page 3 of this post... yet.
I kind of got stuck on the subject matter of page 2 which seemd to mostly regard "God changing his plan."

The belief that God not changing his plan is incorrect. God does change plans according to the "variables" as someone had mentioned. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

In the Old Testement the rule was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Seeing that two wrongs do not make a right, the new rule in the New testement became "turn the other cheek."

Jesus preached that if your enemy should strike you, instead of retaliating, let them hit the other cheek as well.

If there were no changes to the rules, there would be no New Testement. Basicly, this is like the "2 minute warning" in American football. The 2 minute warning is NOT a chance for both teams to rest and try to figure out the best strategy to win the game. It exsists to give both teams a WARNING that the RULES are CHANGING. The last two minutes of the game have different rules than the rest of the game.

I realise its a pretty crummy way to explain it but its the best analogy I can come up with.

Things in the Old Testement werent working out the way the were planned. "Evil begets Evil." If you hit me I hit you? Who is right? I might have pissed someone off so they hit me. I hit them back. Does that make me better or worse than (or equal to) them? Obviously two wrongs do not make a right. Hence there is a New Testement with a completely different mentality to the Old Testement.

More on the rest of this subject in another post [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Earthdog]

Get ready for a long post, as I will attempt to cover many of the threories in this thread.

I could easily "rag" on religion in general. I could HAMMER Catholocism. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "you must confess your sins to a priest."
In the New Testement Jesus says "If you conefess your sins before me, I will confess your sins before the Father." (Dont ask me where, I just remember it says it.)

Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisistion? Turn to God or DIE. All of the Jews that refused to convert, were MURDERED. In the name of God? No. In the name of religous domination. All they effectively did was wipe out the middle class and that hurt the economy of Spain for about 500 years. Spain used to be a global power. Once they wiped out the Jews, or ran them out of the country (which were the merchants) their economy crumbled. They could no longer afford wars on foreign soil, including the "New World." They couldnt even hang on to Mexico.

The way I understand it, when God created Lucifer, he created the most powerful being with the "freedom of choice" that God could create. Basicly God created another being almost as powerful as he himself. When Lucifer decided he wanted to sit on Gods Throne, God said "Aint gonna happen. You're OUTA HERE." and banished him to the Earth.

Satan, as Lucifer came to be called after his banishment from Heaven, is the physical embodiment of Gods own weakenesses. Without Satan God could not exsist. Nor could Satan exsist without God. They are interdependant. (And yes I realise there are a zillion holes in this theory but lets just go with it shall we? )

God gave Satan the power to use people as pawns and try to sway them to his way of thinking. Hence the War in the heavens. (Read the book of Revelations.)

All this aside, I believe the power of the mind is what creates or denies "Magic" as we seem to be calling it.

Ever heard of a "Hypocondriac?" These are people who believe they are "sick." They believe it to the point that they actually become "sick." Medical science cannot find a problem, and therefore a "cure"; yet the patient is ill.

My step-mother was one of these people. Fact is she HATED kids. More than a weeks exposure to children and she'd break out in "hives." All it was, is we got on her nerves. But the physical manifestation of hives was there. Neither me or my brother had any contagious diseases. All this was created in her mind and manifested physically.

I have a friend who is really into this "metaphysical" stuff. She believes in the "shakra" which is an energy, for the lack of a better term. Shes been trying to learn how to "travel" which is what most people call an "out of body experince."

I told her it may not be the pleasant experience shes been expecting.

To put sum it up: I had one once. I had been shot with a .38 Special + with hollowpoint. That night, after I finally got put in a room in ICU, I left my body, looked at myself from the corner of the room at the ceiling, and traveled. I went to the house of the guy who shot me and I beat on his temple and until his temple hit the back of his skull. Brains were all over the nice bright green grass. Once I had my revenge I left. Just in time for a nurse to wake me up and give me pain medication. I told her what she woke me from and she FREAKED and fled the room.

I believe the fact that having killed him in my mind is what kept me from actually going back and killing him. My psyche had already been satisfied.

There is always the chance that if I had come across my friend during all this I might have killed her too. For about 10 minutes I was comeletely EVIL. There is no other term I can apply. What I did went against everything I had ever been taught. Still I had my revenege (psychologically) and didnt need to actually kill him.

Now on the science bit of this. Yes take a computer back to the dark ages and they would call it magic and burn you at the stake. Binary code was actually invented about 600 years ago, if I remember right. So there would have been one guy on the entire planet who wouldnt call you a "heretic" and burn you at the stake.

Read the Book Of Ezekial. In it they basicly descibe what we consider to be UFO's. Read the rest of it. Its quite interesting. Read the bit in the old testament where God followed the Jews for 40 years until they found the Promised Land." Again, scientists believe that they were followed by UFO's.

Magic and superstition are almost one and the same. Today we have proven that there are natural, physical causes for almost everything considered "Magical"

Levitation and psycokenesis ect..... Power of the mind, or illusion? Its documented "fact" that people have been "possessed by the Devil" Yet we still have to prove there IS a Devil, and a God for that matter.

I could go on for days [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Mojo]

Do you concede that it's possible that there are such things as spirits? That we havn't found a satisfactory scientific explaination for them yet?

I was going to write more, but as I was, my computer crashed and so I forgot what it was...I'm sure it'll come back to me....

[slicer15]

Originally posted by Earthdog: I admit right off the bat that I have not read Page 3 of this post... yet. I kind of got stuck on the subject matter of page 2 which seemd to mostly regard "God changing his plan." The belief that God not changing his plan is incorrect. God does change plans according to the "variables" as someone had mentioned. The proof is in the pudding as they say. In the Old Testement the rule was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Seeing that two wrongs do not make a right, the new rule in the New testement became "turn the other cheek." Jesus preached that if your enemy should strike you, instead of retaliating, let them hit the other cheek as well. If there were no changes to the rules, there would be no New Testement. Basicly, this is like the "2 minute warning" in American football. The 2 minute warning is NOT a chance for both teams to rest and try to figure out the best strategy to win the game. It exsists to give both teams a WARNING that the RULES are CHANGING. The last two minutes of the game have different rules than the rest of the game. I realise its a pretty crummy way to explain it but its the best analogy I can come up with. Things in the Old Testement werent working out the way the were planned. "Evil begets Evil." If you hit me I hit you? Who is right? I might have pissed someone off so they hit me. I hit them back. Does that make me better or worse than (or equal to) them? Obviously two wrongs do not make a right. Hence there is a New Testement with a completely different mentality to the Old Testement. More on the rest of this subject in another post [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ah, but God knew this would happen. He planned on that. If Jesus had appeared at an earlier time, His plan of saving mankind would not have worked. Jesus came when He did because it was the right time. When the Devil tempted Him, about the jumping off a building and God will save you bit, He didn't do it, because people would have seen Him as the Son of God, and put Him as king. The problem? He wouldn't have died, therefore not saving us from eternal damnation, as it were.

Back on to my earlier point, remember, God is omniscient. He knows what is going to happen in the future, and so He knew what woiuld happen in the Old Testament. This means He also planned for Jesus to put people back on the right path, of forgiving those who hurt you. Understand what I mean? No offence meant, just my personal beliefs and explanations. [img]smile.gif[/img]