How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by AliCat: Fljotsdale -- like Yorick, I still find in a sense that if you have a design, there's a designer around somewhere. And I believe that everything has a design -- black holes, whatever -- but we haven't necessarily discovered it yet. I'm not sure that chaos really exists, or that it's just a word we use to define things we don't understand the design of yet. Yes, crystals and microbes and all have a design, yet can differ even so. But to me, the incredible intricacy and weaving together of this web just proves even more that there is a higher power at work, even if you want to call that higher power the Tao or Great Spirit or whatever. You said something about the fact of not having a Creator helped you view better that it's our responsibility to clean up the messes we make of nature (at least that's how I interpret what you said). That's fine, and to some extent I agree if you are only going by the 18th or 19th century view of man being justified by the Bible to have dominion over all living things (by the historical view, I mean the prevailing view that justified a lot of destruction of farmland and abuse of animals -- rather similar to the less godly ideas of certain capitalists these days that the US needs more energy to support the population's decadent lifestyles so therefore let's drill the heck out of our national parks without thinking of the consequences or truly justifying our actions).(okay, off the soapbox). I guess the way I view the situation is that Creator or not, I really don't think it's the Creator's responsibility to clean up our messes, and in a sense, we are purposefully being left in this position to teach us responsibility, like a bunch of children who've wrecked their playground. My other view here is that nature, by design, has a way of dealing with things -- like how there's a type of bacteria that eats up the oil in oil spills. Or like how a plague or an ice age can wipe a species out, yet enable another species to exist or flourish. There's a reason for everything, and perhaps one mighty purpose is that nothing lives forever, and it (life) wouldn't be any fun that way anyway. Immortality is not an option, thank heavens. I talked to one lady today who said, "I'm only 83. That's still fairly young." Most of the more aged folks I've talked to are happy to be over 90 or 100 so long as they still feel good (bones aren't breaking, organs intact), but a lot of the rest of the population does not want to get that old, either for fear of physical failure or, like my grandmother, because all her friends and relatives her age had already died before her, and she had no one in that age group left. To some extent, that's another example of a design being present, and thereby, a designer.

Sorry to take so long getting back to you with this, AliCat!

Yes, I agree about design, if by design you mean everything has a natural form dictated by what it IS – like a salt crystal has it’s own shape, and a quartz crystal, and a DNA double helix (which is, I think, the same in all life forms, and only varies in the detail – which is specific to the life type and species).

Regarding whether or not god ia responsible for fixing things:
Well, AliCat, if you are a christian, the bible says just that – that god is going to fix everything. Sure, it also says man was put here to turn the entire earth into a paradise – but one of the reasons Jesus was sent was because we were signally failing to do so and we needed to be put back on the right lines. The bible also points out that we will fail, and only god will be able to fix it for us. While many people are presently unaware of bible teachings, they USED to be, and the attitude of ‘leaving god to fix it’ still underlies a lot of our neglect, imho, even though the basis of the attitude no longer remains. Which is why I think we would do better if we looked at the world and what needs to be done without the filter of belief in god.

I agree about nature having a way of dealing with things. I don’t ‘specially want it to ‘deal with’ us, though!

Oh, and did you know that the bible also promises everlasting life ON EARTH? Like it or not, that’s the promise!

Introverted, huh? Me too!

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-06-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Regarding whether or not god ia responsible for fixing things: Well, AliCat, if you are a christian, the bible says just that – that god is going to fix everything. Sure, it also says man was put here to turn the entire earth into a paradise – but one of the reasons Jesus was sent was because we were signally failing to do so and we needed to be put back on the right lines. The bible also points out that we will fail, and only god will be able to fix it for us. While many people are presently unaware of bible teachings, they USED to be, and the attitude of ‘leaving god to fix it’ still underlies a lot of our neglect, imho, even though the basis of the attitude no longer remains.

Oh come on Fjlotsdale! For Pete's sake! I have knowledge of the bible and am a member of Greenpeace amongst other things. Earth was already a paradise. Quote where you think Humanity needed to do anything to turn it into one.
Also do you really believe that a God outside of time didn't know Humanity would fall?

Man, I don't know what Christians you've hung around, but I don't know any who just "leave God to fix it".

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Oh, and did you know that the bible also promises everlasting life ON EARTH? Like it or not, that’s the promise!

However it quantifies it as a NEW heaven and a new earth Fjlotsdale, not this one.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: I'm pretty sure you won't believe this, Yorick, but I relate exactly to almost everything you have said in the above post (nothing musical, not the illness) - but without having god in the picture. I could have written it and meant it as passionately as you do. So wherein lies the difference of experience?

The difference is I expressed it and you didn't


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: Oh come on Fjlotsdale! For Pete's sake! I have knowledge of the bible and am a member of Greenpeace amongst other things. Earth was already a paradise. Quote where you think Humanity needed to do anything to turn it into one. Also do you really believe that a God outside of time didn't know Humanity would fall? Man, I don't know what Christians you've hung around, but I don't know any who just "leave God to fix it". However it quantifies it as a NEW heaven and a new earth Fjlotsdale, not this one.

Um. No, the earth wasn't a Paradise, Yorick! Just one bit of it was! Check out Genesis 1:28; 2:8,15; 3:17,18,23. It even seems to have had a hedge or fence round it since an angel was placed 'at the entrance' to keep them out when they were banished.

The christians who just 'leave god to fix it' that I spoke of, Yorick, are not present-day christians as you would realise if stopped feeling angry long enough to read my post properly! Gosh, you do get angry a lot for a christian, don't you, lol! No worries - I know it is only because you feel strongly about it, and (maybe?) you think I am trying to twist things, and mislead people. But you ought to know by now that I would not do such a thing.

And, yeah, a god outside time certainly could know mankind would fail. But there is another way of looking at it: that your god could choose to 'wait and see', rather than looking. After all - he did NOT KNOW that Abraham would actually go the full way and sacrifice Isaac, did he? Not until afterwards?Remember? "NOW I DO KNOW... etc". He didn't beforehand.

New Heavens and a New Earth. Yes. But new in what way, Yorick? Is god going to destroy the earth and the heaven he lives in and replace both with new ones? I think not. Remember: 'The earth is standing even forever'(Ecclesiastes 1:4) 'He did not create it simply for nothing, he created it even to be inhabited'(Isaiah 45:18) (see also Proverbs 2:21,22; Psalm 37:9-11,29; Isaiah 65:17,21,22,23)
The book of Revelation is largely symbolic, so 'New' heavens and earth is meant symbolically, too.
Wanna discuss it?

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[Moridin]

Originally posted by Yorick: Man, I don't know what Christians you've hung around, but I don't know any who just "leave God to fix it".

She must hang out with the same ones I do I do agree with Fjlotsdale in this regard. Many Christians do hide behind that statement "god will fix it" but are then confused when years later it isn't any better.

I went to lunch on Tuesday with a friend and I asked her what she thought about the world's problems, based from the discussions of this forum. This was her word for word response "I don't really think about it, it's Gods problem not mine" honest truth!! She is Roman Catholic and this is her belief and no I am not saying that this is representative of all Christians, but I do beleive it is the view of many of them.


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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moridin: She must hang out with the same ones I do I do agree with Fjlotsdale in this regard. Many Christians do hide behind that statement "god will fix it" but are then confused when years later it isn't any better. I went to lunch on Tuesday with a friend and I asked her what she thought about the world's problems, based from the discussions of this forum. This was her word for word response "I don't really think about it, it's Gods problem not mine" honest truth!! She is Roman Catholic and this is her belief and no I am not saying that this is representative of all Christians, but I do beleive it is the view of many of them.

This has nothing to do with them being a Christian though Moridin. There are plenty of people who think "oh Greenpeace will protest this" or "the government will do this, they've done the research". How is that different? I repeat, the Christians I know either recycle, excercise choice in buying ecofriendly products, sponsor children in 3rd world countries, give to the Salvos (another Christian Church) etc etc etc.

Now before Diogenes jumps down my throat I'll clarify that not only Christians do this... I am talking about the ones I know. I don't know any Christians who believe God will magically fix the problem with the earth. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have met a large number you know




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Um. No, the earth wasn't a Paradise, Yorick! Just one bit of it was! Check out Genesis 1:28; 2:8,15; 3:17,18,23. It even seems to have had a hedge or fence round it since an angel was placed 'at the entrance' to keep them out when they were banished. The christians who just 'leave god to fix it' that I spoke of, Yorick, are not present-day christians as you would realise if stopped feeling angry long enough to read my post properly! Gosh, you do get angry a lot for a christian, don't you, lol! No worries - I know it is only because you feel strongly about it, and (maybe?) you think I am trying to twist things, and mislead people. But you ought to know by now that I would not do such a thing. And, yeah, a god outside time certainly could know mankind would fail. But there is another way of looking at it: that your god could choose to 'wait and see', rather than looking. After all - he did NOT KNOW that Abraham would actually go the full way and sacrifice Isaac, did he? Not until afterwards?Remember? "NOW I DO KNOW... etc". He didn't beforehand. New Heavens and a New Earth. Yes. But new in what way, Yorick? Is god going to destroy the earth and the heaven he lives in and replace both with new ones? I think not. Remember: 'The earth is standing even forever'(Ecclesiastes 1:4) 'He did not create it simply for nothing, he created it even to be inhabited'(Isaiah 45:18) (see also Proverbs 2:21,22; Psalm 37:9-11,29; Isaiah 65:17,21,22,23) The book of Revelation is largely symbolic, so 'New' heavens and earth is meant symbolically, too. Wanna discuss it?

Fjlotsdale, I don't need a bible to tell me the earth was paradise. I just have to go over Pittwater in Sydney by boat to the opposite side of the Barenjoey Peninsular and lie on the sand looking up at the trees, hills, rocks and birds feeling warmed by the sun to know that I am in Paradise. Then I go back, sit in the middle of a traffic island surrounded by noisey cars, fume choked air, drug addicts and haunted crazies sleeping in excrement, rats and garbage, and I'm in comparitive hell.

And no I'm not going to discuss the other stuff with you Fjlotsdale, because you will pull verses out of context of the larger picture. "Now I know" does not necessitate a removal of omniscience when viewed in the larger picture of Abrahams actions. It created a degree of trust and reliance in Abraham. The action was for Abrahams benefit, and our knowledge of Gods character, not Gods knowledge of events.

A new heaven and earth being metaphorical? Of course, how can we adequately conceptualise that which we have no experience of? Who knows what the afterlife will entail. It certainly will not be here, in this body, with these limitations.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[WOLFGIR]

Hmm, can´t help but to but in here
On the views of life, I think we can all say that most peoples, believers of a higher deity, a religion, a pholisophical thesis, have all to adjust all they see, all they hear all that they experience around themsleves. Otherwise they would be living someone elses truth. I think that most (don´t dare to take a stronger word to the keyboard) peopl take bits and advice from most things and tries to puzzle out a "bearable truth" to live in.

For example, Yorick defines his belifes and I find many things in it as the same as I have, though we might grant the "extra" feeling from them to different purposes. Where Yorick finds god, I can find nature and chaos.
THe meaning is that we can all marvel and find truths that are not truth, but simply away that we have created to understand and view things. People have notoriously tried to take things apat and categorize themsince as long as we can find evidence. We like order and structuree, to know things. In a part we as persons are not that far behind, cause when I see something I have more or less a "defined" way into viewing and approach it. I can be openminded none the less, but a certain pattern builed on alot of things like memories, wxperience read articles etc etc will always have some impact on how we see, act od handles something we encounter. To debate wether this is right or wrong is as most of you have already stated, silly and utterly pointless. We can´t know, and that bugs out most of us, or not, because we already know eh?

It´s also interesting to see so much biblical discussions here. Since my bibles have been in Swedish I can´t follow each reference exactly, but in the Bible you can find the information that satan has been imprisoned here at earth, one of the things that lead to Gnosticism. Maybe stan wasn´t the devil but god and god was really the devil since mankind was evil and oall that? Well, questions that can never be answered. The bible has alot of contradictions and the old and the new testament both gives and takes apart new and old rules and saying. So if you really like the biblicle debate, choose the same bible the same language! (OK, teasing you all here, but the bible is written by man, and man is doomed to make eroors right?)

What is more important in this debate for me, is to see if there instead of points of views and different truths that need to be compared, can be some sort of a way to understand people with different views and aspects. And as such I have realized alot and found out that many share some of my thoughts and it would be a shame not to mention that we still, believers, philosophers or atheists still agree on alot of views and points..

OKI, well I might have added something useful or something complete gobbeldigook here, but I leave it for each and one of you to decide. Personally I will get myself a cup of tea and try to get rid of the last traces of flue here!


P.S Yorick, I hope you don´t mind if I refered to you above in my ramblings. I didn´t quote you or anything but following your thoughts and your perspectives of your belief I think you are about the first Christian person that I would like to meet!, Yes you points of views are actually abit aside from many that calls themself followers of Chritianity!. And you should take that as a compliment, or I should meet more Christians! )

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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: Fjlotsdale, I don't need a bible to tell me the earth was paradise. I just have to go over Pittwater in Sydney by boat to the opposite side of the Barenjoey Peninsular and lie on the sand looking up at the trees, hills, rocks and birds feeling warmed by the sun to know that I am in Paradise. Then I go back, sit in the middle of a traffic island surrounded by noisey cars, fume choked air, drug addicts and haunted crazies sleeping in excrement, rats and garbage, and I'm in comparitive hell. And no I'm not going to discuss the other stuff with you Fjlotsdale, because you will pull verses out of context of the larger picture. "Now I know" does not necessitate a removal of omniscience when viewed in the larger picture of Abrahams actions. It created a degree of trust and reliance in Abraham. The action was for Abrahams benefit, and our knowledge of Gods character, not Gods knowledge of events. A new heaven and earth being metaphorical? Of course, how can we adequately conceptualise that which we have no experience of? Who knows what the afterlife will entail. It certainly will not be here, in this body, with these limitations.

And here's me thinking you knew the bible, lol! What version do you read, for pete's sake?

I DO NOT take scripture out of context either. I quote what it says, and frequently point out the context as you well know!! Did you even bother reading the scriptures in Genesis I cited? All in context, too! And furthermore, if you read the other scriptures I cited you will realise that Paradise conditions does not just mean pretty places on the earth, but the WHOLE EARTH! No nasty grotty city slums ANYWHERE! EVERYBODY HAPPY. And if your bible doesn't say so, Yorick, then you have a very strange version indeed.
I thought you actually BELIEVED the bible? Are you now telling me you do not?

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