Is spanking a child inappropriate? (opinions)

[Skunk]

I'm sorry Skunk, but that's the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Like i said, some kids are real little devils,and if you let them they destroy your house (i've seen it happen), and disrespect the parents even more in the future when no action is being taken. A thwack in the bottocks isn't the same thing as beating a kid up, and it sure has it's effect. You have to draw the line somewhere. If you don't draw a line, then you're REALLY a bad parent, and the kid COULD grow up into a very unpleasant character to be around with.

Question: Why are the kids resorting to tearing up the house to get a bit of attention from their parents? Poor souls - seems to me that they prefer getting beaten to being left alone in front of the TV. Guess that I can't blame 'em for their 'bad' behaviour.

As for where you draw the line, - you draw the line every time that they do something wrong. I've never assaulted my child; never needed to. But then maybe my wife and I take the time to point out the *why* something is wrong or point out how they would feel if 'X' was done to them. Teach the kids the social rules, teach the kids the rules that society requires you to live by. Explain everything - don't just say 'do this, do that' - give reasons.

At an early age, explanations for 'why X is not allowed' are accepted, and kids generally don't do 'X' again - and if they do, then 'sanctions' like making them sit in the hallway/bedroom for an hour are enough to reinforce the message.

By the time the child reaches the age where those sanctions wouldn't normally work, it doesn't matter: because by then, most kids won't need the sanctions - because they'll be doing the right thing all by themselves.

The only thing a good smack teaches a child is: "Don't get caught"

SMACKING IS THE TOOL OF THE LAZY PARENT.

I'd like to see your reaction when your seven year old son comes home from school, and calls his mother "kankerlijer" when she tells him not to throw stuff through the house. I'm not sure how to translate that word into English, but take it from me, it's BAD, really really bad. It happened to a friend of mine, and i was there when it happened. Apparently he picked that up in the school's playground, and decided it might be useful whenever he was being told not to do this or that around the house. My mouth fell wide open when i heard him say that, and so did my fiend's and his wife's. But only for a brief moment, and then he slapped him a couple of times and told him it would be worse if he ever heard him say that word again. I don't think ANY parent can keep his/her cool when your kid calls you names like that, and imo there's only one way to teach him not do say that ever again.

Funnily enough when my child was five she once used a 'bad' word that she picked up from school. There was a supply teacher in one day and when I asked my daughter what she was like, she said that she was a 'kut' juffie.
Sorry no explanations to the non-Dutch but, again, it's not a phrase that you would associate with a five year old. I simply sat my child down, explained that it was a 'bad' word and that people would be angry and upset if they heard that word - and guess what? She has never said that word again.

By the way Johnnie, did you hear the news? Some of the Dutch troops in Iraq have been posted to the town of Kut! Imagine coming home and being asked where you served: "I served in K...K... Bagdad!"

[ 08-10-2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[johnny]

originally posted by Skunk Question: Why are the kids resorting to tearing up the house to get a bit of attention from their parents? Poor souls - seems to me that they prefer getting beaten to being left alone in front of the TV. Guess that I can't blame 'em for their 'bad' behaviour.

Rubbish, the child in question gets all the attention a kid could ever need, when he wants something, he usually gets it. But still there are moments that he acts completely uncontrolable. You can ignore his whining for some time, but when he starts breaking stuff in the house, you gotta end that quickly.

It's not about getting enough attention, it's about wanting ALL attention ALL the time.

[Skunk]

Rubbish, the child in question gets all the attention a kid could ever need, when he wants something, he usually gets it. But still there are moments that he acts completely uncontrolable. You can ignore his whining for some time, but when he starts breaking stuff in the house, you gotta end that quickly. It's not about getting enough attention, it's about wanting ALL attention ALL the time.

This sounds like an ordinary temper tantrum - stick him in his room until he's willing to behave - no need to resort to violence.

But you've already given a clear indication as to what has gone. "You can ignore his whining for some time you say - but why are you ignoring it? That has to be dealt with because if he doesn't get that sorted or if he's being ignored, he goes on to phase 2 "Whining didn't work, so I'll get their attention by smashing up the house [CRASH!] - and yes, that *does* work because here comes Papa!".

Parenting requires patience and (perhaps more importantly) consistency.

[ 08-10-2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Paladin2000]

Originally posted by johnny: I'd like to see your reaction when your seven year old son comes home from school, and calls his mother "kankerlijer" when she tells him not to throw stuff through the house. I'm not sure how to translate that word into English, but take it from me, it's BAD, really really bad. It happened to a friend of mine, and i was there when it happened. Apparently he picked that up in the school's playground, and decided it might be useful whenever he was being told not to do this or that around the house. My mouth fell wide open when i heard him say that, and so did my fiend's and his wife's. But only for a brief moment, and then he slapped him a couple of times and told him it would be worse if he ever heard him say that word again. I don't think ANY parent can keep his/her cool when your kid calls you names like that, and imo there's only one way to teach him not do say that ever again.

Yeah, I recall an incident where my daughter picked up a vulgar word, something like f**k translated in English. Me and my wife had to slap her (slightly) in the mouth a few times and explained to her that it is a very bad word to use until she learnt her lesson.

Then one day, I got mad about something and utter that word in my anger and my daughter overheard me. She came to be and say, "Daddy, you are using the bad word!" She then proceed to slap me in the mouth and before I get the chance to apologize to her, she ran to the kitchen and told my wife what I did.

I don't know about you, but I think the light slap on her mouth actually taught her a valuable lesson. (and me too, as I am a little more cautious nowadays about what I speak when she is around me).

[ 08-10-2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Paladin2000 ]

[johnny]

Skunk, you didn't understand what i meant, the whining starts only after he doesn't get what he wants. Trust me, he has everything he wants and all the attention a kid could ask for, but sometimes parents have to say "no, that won't happen". Then the whining starts, and imo ignoring that is the best way to deal with it at that moment, otherwise your doing exactly what he wants. Kids are smart, they know exactly what strings to pull.

But if you're ignoring him at that time, he'll go on a rampage after a while. and that's gotta end. You can't allow that to happen, otherwise you're no longer the boss in your own home.

And did you read my previous post ? About the "kankerlijer" issue ? I know you're British, but since you live in Amsterdam, i'm sure that word sounds familiar to you. What would your reaction be if your son called your wife that ?

Edit: i guess i didn't read YOUR post all that well, i missed the last part.

Well, if i was a soldier, and they'd send me abroad, of all places they could deploy me to, there wouldn't be a place i'd rather be than in Kut.

[ 08-10-2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: johnny ]

[johnny]

originally posted by Paladin2000 I don't know about you, but I think the light slap on her mouth actually taught her a valuable lesson. (and me too, as I am a little more cautious nowadays about what I speak when she is around me).

Smart thinking, kids can be very good listeners, and words like that may sound interresting to them, so they remember it, and use it in other situations.

I still remember the smack my grandfather gave me, when i was 9 years old, and watching a Winnetou and Old Shatterhand movie. In the end the heroe got shot, and i said "wat een kutvent", or in English "what a m**********r". I guess ihad it coming to me. If my grandfather hadn't slapped me at that time, i might have thought of that as a signal that i could curse around the house whenever i felt like it. And that's just not right for a little boy.

[Skunk]

And did you read my previous post ? About the "kankerlijer" issue ? I know you're British, but since you live in Amsterdam, i'm sure that word sounds familiar to you. What would your reaction be if your son called your wife that ?

Well, I already told you about 2nd borne who was too young to understand what 'bad' words really mean and how offensive they were. First borne (on the other hand) knows only too well - and such an utterance would cause the loss of just about every privilege that makes life bearable (probably for about 4 weeks) - and I'd still expect a genuine apology after the punishment period ends. But that has never happened - she learned the rules at an early age long before she knew what such words meant.

As for whining - I always considered that an offense that required punishment - rather than ignoring it. The risk otherwise is an escalation. Give your explanation, give a warning with the threat of sanctions and if the whining doesn't stop, enact the punishment.

Then one day, I got mad about something and utter that word in my anger and my daughter overheard me. She came to be and say, "Daddy, you are using the bad word!" She then proceed to slap me in the mouth and before I get the chance to apologize to her, she ran to the kitchen and told my wife what I did. I don't know about you, but I think the light slap on her mouth actually taught her a valuable lesson. (and me too, as I am a little more cautious nowadays about what I speak when she is around me).

Exactly what I meant when I said that consistency is important - everyone has to follow the same rules and it's important to ensure that other 'carers' like grandparents keep to the *parents'* rules too.

[Grendal]

My personal feelings on youngsters and cursing is a little differant. No you shouldnt let them get away with it but by making a big scene the kid thinks..."hey I gotta remember that word, it gets ppl worked up!" Whereas if you dont make a big deal of it, but explain that that really isnt a good word to use in public, it doesnt make such a big impact on them.

[Paladin2000]

Exactly what I meant when I said that consistency is important - everyone has to follow the same rules and it's important to ensure that other 'carers' like grandparents keep to the *parents'* rules too.

I don't much know about consistency, but I know that a good smack sometimes do product desirable effect. In my case, if my daughter decided to step out of line in the future, she can expect to be spanked from time to time.

Anyway, I grew up in a typical South East Asia family and I did get spanked quite a lot while growing up. I don't know why westerner make such a big fuss about spanking, but over here, it is like a part of life--something we are subjected in the process of growing up.

My father spanked me when I was young. My mom did it too.

Any serious negative effect? None whatsoever.
Would I love them better if they haven't been spanking me when I was young? NO.
Will I be spanking my kids in the future? Yes.
Do I think my kids is going to grow up hating me for doing that? No.

So long as I don't abuse this type of punishment, I don't see why it is so wrong to use it.

Anyway, it is just my opinion and I don't expect all of you to agree with me.

[Faceman]

I think the last posts made something very clear.
Kids want attention and are sometimes willing to do pretty nasty things to get it. Now slapping IS attention (not very desirable one but...). IMO when a kid wants something doesn't get it and starts whining you have to make it clear in firm speech that there is NO chance to obtain whatever he/she wanted and NEVER give in. Kids ARE smart and if a certain algorithm works one time they are gonna try it again. But if they discover that whining leads to nothing but: "Go to your Room!" they won't see much use in continuing it.
It's also quite smart to explain to a whining kid why whining worked when he/she was a baby (only possibility to communicate and draw attention) but now doesn't anymore (You can talk now. Use that!).