Moratorium on religious discussion

[Mouse]

Yorick - all noted and considered. Perhaps you might like to drop in to the forum Cerek linked to in one of his posts where you may find "dissonance that moves into harmonious resolutions"

Unfortunately, for whatever reasons, our experience here is that our particular mix of members is far too volatile to remove the moratorium at present. We have tried to treat adults as adults. On this issue, too often they act like children.

[ 08-27-2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Mouse ]

[Timber Loftis]

Can I ask everyone involved in what is becoming a Petition to the Mods to consider one thing please?

Is this group of people really the mix you want to discuss religion with? Do you really want to hear the opinions of ALL of us? Wouldn't you be better off on a well-moderated religious discussion board?

Look, the last time this moratorium was lifted, it was because I unwittingly posted a purely religious discussion. I was fairly new, and don't think I even knew about the moratorium. But, the mods let it pass, and things went well for a while.

For a while.

Then, we realized that the posts were definately degenerating. We all saw it firsthand. We have a mix of people here at IWF that includes EVERYTHING under the sun. And, we're pretty darn intelligent, and all of us opinionated. And, when it comes to religion, we tend to see our opposing posters and thinK: "This person is otherwise smart, so how can they be so DUMB about something so OBVIOUS?" And then we look down on them, and berate them. While they do the same to us.

No one else is really saying it, so I will: I have reservations.

[Jaradu]

Originally posted by Mouse: On this issue, too often they act like children.

I resent that! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Although I wish for the moratorium to be lifted, I can't help but agree with Timber. We're all promising to be good people and talk nicely, but eventually things WILL get out of hand. It can't be denied - bad things will be said.

Although I have not been around long enough to witness serious religious flaming in the CE forums, I've read some pretty bad stuff in the archives. Are we all 100% certain that we're not going to revert to that? Sometimes we can surprise ourselves. If we ever want the moratorium lifted, we have to prove to the moderators, and to ourselves, that we are worthy. I don't know how long this would take but I wouldn't expect anything anytime soon because its a very serious decision.

Religion, IMO, is the most interesting thing to discuss. Let's not ruin it for ourselves, eh? As the mods said, "the ball was in your [our] court"...

[Aerich]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: We have a mix of people here at IWF that includes EVERYTHING under the sun. And, we're pretty darn intelligent, and all of us opinionated. And, when it comes to religion, we tend to see our opposing posters and thinK: "This person is otherwise smart, so how can they be so DUMB about something so OBVIOUS?" And then we look down on them, and berate them. While they do the same to us. No one else is really saying it, so I will: I have reservations.

The paragraph above is excellent, Timber. A very good summation.

And I also have reservations about a full-on religious discussion. No wait, I don't. I'm against it, in the context of the IW CE forum.

I have nothing against religious discussions in general and I have participated in many (face-to-face, not online). The value in it is exactly what Yorick has posted - self-examination and broadening of perspective. It is also a fascinating and interesting subject (as Jaradu stated) that gets to the roots of what people believe and why they do what they do. But it's too much of a hot topic here. When I first entered the forum a few months ago, I almost left again after reading some of the old posts. Reading some of those old threads was like listening to a recording of people screaming insults at each other. Emotions run too high and posters get too personal. Period.

That's why I would restrict it to threads where it is pertinent to some other issue. Even then it can turn bad, but that's why we have to self-moderate.

[Timber Loftis]

Where religion is concerned, it's nice to be sitting with the person you are discussing it with. It allows cooler heads to prevail. Online, discussions get out of hand because it's easier to yell and cuss at words on a screen rather than the person in front of your face. Politics gets heated enough online, religion burns like a wildfire.

[ 08-27-2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Nightwing]

I'm with T.L. on this one. Just look at the subsistence society discussion and the one on Missori bans gay mariage. Both of those got pretty heated and personal. Although they were entertaining there wasn't much factual discution after a while just insults. We may need more time.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Where religion is concerned, it's nice to be sitting with the person you are discussing it with. It allows cooler heads to prevail. Online, discussions get out of hand because it's easier to yell and cuss at words on a screen rather than the person in front of your face. Politics gets heated enough online, religion burns like a wildfire.

At least there's no physical violence.

I was just at the NYC bike protest, and experienced how quickly a disagreement can flare into physical response, given frustration. It didn't escalate into, but a truck did start pushing some bikers. At least people can think about their responses, and walk away for 5 online.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Hopefully this will provide some clarity. [img]smile.gif[/img] EDIT: Can I just say that if you guys have behaved yourselves way back before we had this moratorium this wouldn't even be an issue.

Oh I totally deserve that last bit, it's so true! For those who are new- I was part of the problem that created the religious moratorium. I know firsthand where it can lead and how poorly people (including myself) can behave. Not something I am proud of, but certainly did learn from.

Thanks for the clarity Memnoch. My confusion is settled and now I know for sure what is what and where the lines are drawn. Thanks.

[Larry_OHF]

Wanna know why A moderator would ever ban a topic from being discussed?

I have not seen it mentioned in this thread so I will spell it out. Because Ziroc and Memnoch do NOT want to have to use that delete button on the page that says "Remove this member from the website permanately?" (Paraphrased)

Think about it. Why the heck else would a ban on something be placed on anything? If the moderators allowed it, somebody would walk themselves into trouble...then Memnoch would remove that person from membership...then in only a month or so, that person would be either begging to get let back in, or try to sneak in under a new name. Why would he and Ziroc want to put up with all that? It is just easier to ban a topic than a person. Can anyone disagree with that? I would hope not, as the membership is much more important to this community than is a topic of debate. Better to sacrifice potential cyber-learning than lose a friend.

Besides...how much does anyone learn when being told how stupid they are for believing in what they do?

[Cerek]

I lobbied long and hard for the original moratorium to be lifted - and as Timber pointed out - a series of events and posts finally led the Mods to give it a try. As noted, things didn't go well. [img]graemlins/verysad.gif[/img]

Yorick - I know precisely how you feel. I, too, felt the moratorium represented a sad loss for IW. Religion is my absolute favorite topic to discuss on any forum. But this time - when I felt the urge to petition again for the moratorium to be lifted - I thought about the attitudes and invectives that had filled the pages of previous discussions.

That's when I decided to simply Search the Web for a site dedicated to religious discussions. Not only are the threads well moderated, but since religion is the central focus of the site, there are a much broader range of theological issues and questions available for discussion.

Dissonance within a song may be a positive thing that can be appreciated by different people, but try asking the same two people who the greatest band of all time is and watch the sparks fly. [img]graemlins/fight.gif[/img]

This is even more true with religion; where the slightest disagreement against passionately held beliefs is often viewed as a personal insult or attack. [img]graemlins/madhell.gif[/img]