Wesley Clark vs Fox news

[Ronn_Bman]

Ah Pickachu, but you assume I watch Fox. I don't(unless it is on at the gym and I can't change the channel). Again, I'll point out that you are pretty blasé about the fact that the mainstream media leans. You seem to find that acceptable, but the only logical reason for that would be that you agree.

Rokenn, my only question about the video clip is whether that was during a newscast or a commentary show. I'm not familiar with the host, but I do know that on MSNBC left-winger Bill Press hits the right with everything possible while his partner, right-winger Pat Buchanan, does the exact same to the left. The reason I like Buchanan and Press is because it's more balanced when you hear from both sides, but even if it was just the left or just the right represented that show is quite a bit different than a newscast.

Please understand I'm not blind to what this guy was doing to Clark, and I think Clark handled the incident perfectly. The guy was making an issue of a non-issue. Of course he was, but it happens everyday. I don't accept it on Fox anymore than I can accept it everywhere else. I can see that bias even though I'm on the right. Maybe it's because I'm not that far right that I can see it.

What I see as disingenuous is when those on the left can't or won't see something that leans to the left or worse try to excuse it. Does it really make a difference if it's more subtle? Is it really ok to lean on a report as long as you are subtle? I think not. I'd rather see the cartoonish Fox leanings and accept them for what they are, than try to justify the fact that the mainstream leans a bit but it's only an acceptable leaning. Acceptable for whom?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Pikachu_PM: Often times, to make a point, one must demonstrate to the other party by example the point one is trying to make.

Maybe a straight forward discussion of the subject would be better? After all, you didn't know the extent of my position before supposedly implimenting your demonstration. I'm perfectly capable of understanding ideas, so you don't have to become a caricature for me.

Me understand good.

[Larry_OHF]

Can we lay aside the idea that voting a certain way is proof that one is stupid? That is a stonger, more vulgar word in Spanish than it is in English, and there are Hispanic-Americans that visit this website that might vote Republican. Some other Americans that are not Hispanic may also be offended. Therefore, this is breaking TOS Rules by using such grammer to pool people into, due to their preferences.

Thanks.

[Luvian]

"A biased opinion is one you don't agree with." --David Brinkley

[Pikachu_PM]

"What I see as disingenuous is when those on the left can't or won't see something that leans to the left or worse try to excuse it. Does it really make a difference if it's more subtle? Is it really ok to lean on a report as long as you are subtle? I think not. I'd rather see the cartoonish Fox leanings and accept them for what they are, than try to justify the fact that the mainstream leans a bit but it's only an acceptable leaning. Acceptable for whom?"

__________

I never said i didn't see it...in fact I said I did see it and implied (though maybe not obviously enough) that I don't agree with it--because I don't. Bias is bad...it is also unavoidable. Anybody who tells you anything, no matter how unbiased they try to be (and the traditional media really does try to be unbiased) is always going to, at best, unknowling spin it a certain way according to their perceptions. I am not claming the media is perfect...I am saying they at least make the attempt to be 'clean'. FOX on the other hand issues directives from its board to spin all stories in the 'right' directions (did you like my pun!). It doesn't even try to be unbiased.

I've got no problem with a right leaning media outlet...I do have a problem with a media outlet (liberal, conservative, or otherwise) that intentional and maliciously distorts the facts.

"Maybe a straight forward discussion of the subject would be better? After all, you didn't know the extent of my position before supposedly implimenting your demonstration. I'm perfectly capable of understanding ideas, so you don't have to become a caricature for me.

Me understand good. "

_____

But I did know the extent of your position...I could tell in your first argument, and the confirmation of my opinion of your position has come in your later post. Further, of course I could just try and have a straight forward discussion...but those aren't nearly as entertaing, take twice as long, do a worse job at proving a point, and without restructuring the view point for the other party rarely succeed in changing anybodies mind.

Just wondering: What does your not watching FOX have to do with anything?(that sounds rude---i'm really asking, not being a ****) You may not, but plenty of other Americans do and a lot of them have no concept of the fact that it is even biased, much less downright manipulative.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Pikachu_PM: But I did know the extent of your position...I could tell in your first argument, and the confirmation of my opinion of your position has come in your later post. Your insight is truly amazing. Can you do card tricks, too? Further, of course I could just try and have a straight forward discussion...but those aren't nearly as entertaing, take twice as long, do a worse job at proving a point, and without restructuring the view point for the other party rarely succeed in changing anybodies mind. You may want to rethink your strategy because you didn't prove anything to anyone except yourself, and since you were already on your side, that was a given wasn't it? Impressing one's self isn't really all that impressive a talent. Twice as long to actually discuss it? Maybe, but then you may have actually made your point. Of course entertainment was listed first in your list, so I'll assume that is what was most important to you in your posts. Just wondering: What does your not watching FOX have to do with anything?(that sounds rude---i'm really asking, not being a ****) You may not, but plenty of other Americans do and a lot of them have no concept of the fact that it is even biased, much less downright manipulative. I'm confused, I thought you had me figured out. What's with the questions? A lot of Americans do see Fox, millions in fact, but I have to believe only a tiny portion of those don't know Fox for what it is. The real point is that 50 times the number of viewers who watch Fox watch the mainstream media. 50 times the actual viewer ship! The mainstream’s leaning is MORE difficult for the average Joe to detect because it isn't so overt as Fox's. Hmmm... political leanings that are more difficult to detect, reaches many, many more people, and is excused as being acceptable. Nope, that doesn't sound too bad. I guess the one thing we can agree on is the fact that leaning the news is wrong, but I also guess we'll have to differ on even the nuances of that since I see it ALL as wrong without having to make any excuses or exceptions for either side... Of course, you knew I'd say all that, but I figured I'd type it out so everyone else could further enjoy your prognosticative powers.

[ 11-25-2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Pikachu_PM]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this...


"Your insight is truly amazing. Can you do card tricks, too?"

As a matter of fact...yes.


"You may want to rethink your strategy because you didn't prove anything to anyone except yourself, and since you were already on your side, that was a given wasn't it? Impressing one's self isn't really all that impressive a talent.

Twice as long to actually discuss it? Maybe, but then you may have actually made your point. Of course entertainment was listed first in your list, so I'll assume that is what was most important to you in your posts. "

Oh Really? Perhaps if you actually read and understood the point of my post you'd come to your senses. What have I said thus Far? That traditional media is biased slightly to the left and that is bad. That FOX Leans heavily to the right and that is very very bad. What of this do you not agree with? In fact, from what you're written you do agree with me and are currently just arguing petty points to come off looking 'right'.


"I'm confused, I thought you had me figured out. What's with the questions?

A lot of Americans do see Fox, millions in fact, but I have to believe only a tiny portion of those don't know Fox for what it is. The real point is that 50 times the number of viewers who watch Fox watch the mainstream media. 50 times the actual viewer ship! The mainstream’s leaning is MORE difficult for the average Joe to detect because it isn't so overt as Fox's.

Hmmm... political leanings that are more difficult to detect, reaches many, many more people, and is excused as being acceptable. Nope, that doesn't sound too bad.

I guess the one thing we can agree on is the fact that leaning the news is wrong, but I also guess we'll have to differ on even the nuances of that since I see it ALL as wrong without having to make any excuses or exceptions for either side...

Of course, you knew I'd say all that, but I figured I'd type it out so everyone else could further enjoy your prognosticative powers. "

Wow, you REALLY took a comment and have spinned it in a totally new direction...you should apply for a job at FOX! When did I say I had you 'all figured out' or 'knew everything about you'? ALl I said was that based off your initial post I could logically deduce where your argument was going. Your more recent post have shown me I was right...I could very well have been wrong.

There was a study done awhile back about media influences on politcal voting that would cement this debate...I only wish I could remember all the details. Its a sad thing to know my facts but not know my sources (I can already smell your sarcastic comments). Essentially, what I gather from YOUR statement is that it's ok for FOX to manipulate people because traditional media is slighly biased and reaches more viewers. You go further to assume that the people who watch FOX know it's manipulative...thats a rather naive statment.

Traditional news outlets are what they are because we've given them the duty of becoming government watch dogs...a duty they are entirley unqualified to handle. More to the point, because of this they have a tendency to lean in the opposite direction of whatever political party is currently in the executive office. Republicans have been in office for most of the last 2-3 decades and hence part of the perception that the media is left winged (remember the Clinton administration...how left winged did the media seem then?)

I'm not saying thats 'ok', i'm just saying tha that at least the bias isn't intentional and is a result of the media attempting to keep the government honest. You can say what you want...but there is a line between being biased and being manipuative, and FOX has crossed that line by several hundred steps. Oh, and the real argument would be if I would feel the same way if FOX was manipulative to the left...and the answer would be 'yes'. Believe it or not, I'm actually turning into a Republican...maybe I've been watching too much FOX news.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ 11-26-2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Pikachu_PM ]

[Luvian]

They way I see it, news station leaning on the left ae usually more anti-govenrment and anti-capitalism, which is a good thing for a news station, while those leaning on the right are usually pro-government and pro-capitalism, which is usually not very good.

I'd rather have someone over hyping my government's and corporation's mistake, frauds and abuse rather someone trying to hide and justify it.

Of course this is just a streotype, but it's mostly true.

[Ronn_Bman]

Pikachu, now you're just making me laugh at the degree to which you are impressed by yourself. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I appear to agree with you, so why am I arguing? I'd say that despite your agreeing with my position, you were the one arguing with me. You were so busy trying show me the error of my ways that you missed the boat. Your amazing insight(one of those that initially irritated you anyway) into my post(s) was that I think it is ok for Fox to say and do whatever they want because of the leaning of the mainstream, when I've never said or implied anything of the kind. You made a leap, but it wasn't a logical one based on my post, and nothing I've said has backed that idea, so not only was your initial logic was flawed, your opinion regarding my later posts was biased based on your initial misconception.

I should be a spin doctor? Please spare me. I'm not a spin doctor, I'm a smart ass, and you are an enabler. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I'm arguing just to appear correct? Where is chewie's "pot calling he kettle black" image when I need it? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Pikachu_PM]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Pikachu, now you're just making me laugh at the degree to which you are impressed by yourself. [img]smile.gif[/img] I appear to agree with you, so why am I arguing? I'd say that despite your agreeing with my position, you were the one arguing with me. You were so busy trying show me the error of my ways that you missed the boat. Your amazing insight(one of those that initially irritated you anyway) into my post(s) was that I think it is ok for Fox to say and do whatever they want because of the leaning of the mainstream, when I've never said or implied anything of the kind. You made a leap, but it wasn't a logical one based on my post, and nothing I've said has backed that idea, so not only was your initial logic was flawed, your opinion regarding my later posts was biased based on your initial misconception. I should be a spin doctor? Please spare me. I'm not a spin doctor, I'm a smart ass, and you are an enabler. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I'm arguing just to appear correct? Where is chewie's "pot calling he kettle black" image when I need it? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

"EDIT - While I recognize that Fox is biased, my initial response in this thread was sarcastic. Unsuccessfully so obviously, but sarcastic none the less."
--RonnBMan


This statement of yours is the foundation of my whole reasons for continuing to 'argue' with you. With your original post about "nothing on FOX is worth watching" being 'sarcastic' it's logical for me to assume you find FOX well worth watching despite its biasness.

My original post focussed on agreeing with the 'topic originator' that FOX news is very manipulative. In response to this basic post you went off on a tangent about 'liberal' media, and within that context made the above statement.

You have defended FOX news and attacked traditional media in every post since...acknowledging the manipulation but excusing it because of a percieved liberal bias. I have attempted to challange this asserstion, and in doing have acknowledged the liberal biaseness in traditional media...admitting it is a problem. I have simply gone further to state that FOX news is worse.

You have agreed FOX is extremely biased, and the traditional media is slightly biased...but are holding your ground at the idea that it is 'ok' for FOX to do what it does because 'the other guy does it less as bad, but to more people.' This is where we disagree, and your viewpoint on this is where I think you are arguing just to argue. You seem like too intelligent a guy to actually think that.

[ 11-28-2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Pikachu_PM ]