The Line. A Serious Queston for Ziroc.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: Anyway..the point of all this is that I would just like to know where the line is? Are we still allowed to post our opinions? Are we still allowed to do it in strong terms? Are we still allowed to engage in those spirited debates? I understand the need to avoid personal attacks, and to have respect. But one poster's 'personal opinion' is anothers 'personal attack'. So where is the line being drawn?

This should answer your question, Nachtrafe - you may have seen it before.

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others.


Debating is not about winning or losing, it's about expressing a point of view and listening to another person expressing theirs. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree when the argument starts to go nowhere.


Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view.

I know most of you love a good spirited debate, since most of you are quite strongly opinionated, if somewhat tactless about expressing opinions, serenely confident in your righteousness and in the other's wrongness. This is not a problem unless you start making snide remarks about each other which don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, as this usually leads to shouting profanities at each other, which then becomes a problem. However, I'm sure will not happen, given that we're all VERY good at exercising self-control, right?

Just remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean you have lost the argument.



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[Fonzie Forum Tyrant of MH]

Firstly Hola Wingboy

Well I will add in my "newbi* opinion to this, Being from England I am sort of looking from the outside in, however the UK is the second most involved of Americas allies, so we see a lot.

Now the simple fact is, I think Americans have enough to worry about, and fight with, without people calling each other out on every little thing, I think before you post an attack on some one here for what ever reason you should think about how that makes you look.

Now I have spoken to a few people whome I know from MH who have been attacked over their views on this section and I find it sad.

The one good thing to come from the Terrorist attacks that you have suffered has been that -- over here atleast-- There has been Unity, between all people of all faiths, the free western world seem determined more than ever to show unity through diversity, that is one of the strongest foundations of UK society, we are truly multi cultural and while we dont always follow the same beliefs I respect my Muslim/Buddist/Christian/Jewish/jedi, neighbours for haveing their beliefs and being strong enough to follow them, in this the darkest of times for some.

so yes Ziroc has every right to ban people for haveing no respect for each other this is after all his forum, but I think aslong as you respect each other you can argue a point, that is good, debate and use intellegance and logic and reason to form a good sound argument, you can learn a lot from each other this way. But if you resort to argueing with the person, of besmirching their belifs which they hold true, and which they follow, then you lose any esteem and respect that you should deserve.

Now I have seen attacks on people for their religion, their lack of it, i have seen people called out over christianity, Judaism, Islam, I say if you cant agree with some ones beliefs, respect them, otherwise we become in essance as bad as those fundamentalists who perpatrated the horrific atrocitys of the 11th.

Remember that, before you post inflamed views on another persons way of life, if it doesnt hurt you, why attack it?

Originally posted by Ziroc: No matter what I do here, I will put someones nose out of joint. I have learned that, and except it.. SUCKS, but It must be done. Ironworks hasn't become one of the best forums on the net for poor management. Our Mods and I don't take sides, and try to look at each post from a 'neutral' position. PS: Just for future reference (For everyone), please email me privately for questions like these.

It take responsibilty for not emailing a mod concerning the humor. I took the matter to the public in general out of a need to find an agreeing point of view. It sucks feeling like a "singled out minority".

I think the mods here do a great job under sometimes difficult circumstances.

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Ziroc: As I posted here: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ML/000105.html And Here: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ML/000001.html The line is really simple, no personal attacks, and no attacks on someones beliefs/race/religion/creed. That Joke post may have been funny to some, but it also made many people mad. No matter what I do here, I will put someones nose out of joint. I have learned that, and except it.. SUCKS, but It must be done. Ironworks hasn't become one of the best forums on the net for poor management. Our Mods and I don't take sides, and try to look at each post from a 'neutral' position. PS: Just for future reference (For everyone), please email me privately for questions like these.

Thanks for the answer Ziroc. LOL...I dont have my nose out of joint. Really I dont. I was(and still am) concerned about one of my favorite places on the net. I appreciate your straightupnes(is that a word? ).

And I firmly believe IW is one of the best sites on the net. Period.

PS: Sorry. Was tired and wasn't thinking. From now on, anything like this will be E-Mailed.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Nachtrafe (happy to meet you, BTW ), I've been following the exact opposite reasoning than you did ! Two weeks, one week ago, I was getting more and more afraid to post, as I am also a person with strong opinions. Then at some point, 3 days ago, I decided that no, I won't let others throw me out of here, I am as entitled to my opinions as everyone else in here, so I WILL check and double-check my writings so as to keep in the area of personal respect, but I WILL post what I think and feel with no fear. Now, what happened yesterday from Ziroc and the Mods make me feel much better here ! I know that I will be protected from disrespect towards me - and, even more important, I KNOW that others will be protected aggainst my eventual crossing of the rules. I am human, not perfect. I have strong opinions and a temper. If I get banned, I will submit willingly - the possibility that I may get banned is the very guarantee that allows me to post freely now.

Nice to meet you too Moraine. Cloudy has told me alot about you(All good, I promise.)

FWIW, I'm glad to see that you are posting. What I have seen so far is eloquent and passionate.

So, in a completely non-official way...Welcome to the War Forum.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Sometimes, Nachtrafe, the phrase 'politically correct' is not a dirty word, lol! Only sometimes, though! And this is one of those times!

Hmmmm...OK...I'll grant you that its not evil in this context.
Otherwise though...its one of the dirtiest words I know. But only one. HEHE

PS: Technically, its 2 dirty words...oh well. :happy2:

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Memnoch: This should answer your question, Nachtrafe - you may have seen it before. I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others. Debating is not about winning or losing, it's about expressing a point of view and listening to another person expressing theirs. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree when the argument starts to go nowhere. Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view. I know most of you love a good spirited debate, since most of you are quite strongly opinionated, if somewhat tactless about expressing opinions, serenely confident in your righteousness and in the other's wrongness. This is not a problem unless you start making snide remarks about each other which don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, as this usually leads to shouting profanities at each other, which then becomes a problem. However, I'm sure will not happen, given that we're all VERY good at exercising self-control, right? Just remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean you have lost the argument.

Thanks for the response too Mems. I've seem that quote before. And I try very hard to live it. Kudos to you as well for the awesomeness that is IW.


PS: One little bitty thing..."Debating is not about winning or losing" HAH! I spent most of my high school being a semi-pro debater. And seriously considered the legal field. Ask any lawyer about whether a debate is about winning or losing.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: And I firmly believe IW is one of the best sites on the net. Period.

What do you mean, we're not good enough to be the best for you? I'm sad, I'm sure that others will be too. I personnally think that this is THE best place on the net... period

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Fonzie Forum Tyrant of MH: Firstly Hola Wingboy Well I will add in my "newbi* opinion to this, Being from England I am sort of looking from the outside in, however the UK is the second most involved of Americas allies, so we see a lot. Now the simple fact is, I think Americans have enough to worry about, and fight with, without people calling each other out on every little thing, I think before you post an attack on some one here for what ever reason you should think about how that makes you look. Now I have spoken to a few people whome I know from MH who have been attacked over their views on this section and I find it sad. The one good thing to come from the Terrorist attacks that you have suffered has been that -- over here atleast-- There has been Unity, between all people of all faiths, the free western world seem determined more than ever to show unity through diversity, that is one of the strongest foundations of UK society, we are truly multi cultural and while we dont always follow the same beliefs I respect my Muslim/Buddist/Christian/Jewish/jedi, neighbours for haveing their beliefs and being strong enough to follow them, in this the darkest of times for some. so yes Ziroc has every right to ban people for haveing no respect for each other this is after all his forum, but I think aslong as you respect each other you can argue a point, that is good, debate and use intellegance and logic and reason to form a good sound argument, you can learn a lot from each other this way. But if you resort to argueing with the person, of besmirching their belifs which they hold true, and which they follow, then you lose any esteem and respect that you should deserve. Now I have seen attacks on people for their religion, their lack of it, i have seen people called out over christianity, Judaism, Islam, I say if you cant agree with some ones beliefs, respect them, otherwise we become in essance as bad as those fundamentalists who perpatrated the horrific atrocitys of the 11th. Remember that, before you post inflamed views on another persons way of life, if it doesnt hurt you, why attack it?

Wingboy...
Hi yourself KothieWothieSnookieOokums.

You know dude. Sometimes you amaze me. This is one of the best posts I have read, anywhere, in ages. Thank you very much.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Thank you Ziroc, and Mems for answering this. And thanks everyone else for your insight. No matter how upset or frustrated I may get, its things like this that remind me why I come here.

Thanks everyone else I didn't answer individually.

Laters all...See you on the boards.