Same sex marriages. Your opinon? Volume two.

[Moiraine]

Hi guys, I'll make this post quick because I'm leaving for 3 weeks of vacation in 5 mn. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yorick *sigh* yes, I was aware of what you mentioned about the Bantu. And many many other stories showing what man can do when he feels superior. Or when he wants to feel superior. What annoyed me in your previous post was : "weaker species that we are superior to in every way". Well we are not. The Neanderthal man was physically stronger and better adapted to cold climates. Our long lost ancestors were better suited to climb trees. And the T. Rex was certainly much much stronger than we are. "Superior in every way" indeed. No, we are just different from them, a step on the road. Evolution does not have a goal, Yorick. I guess one of the strong reasons I cannot believe in a God as current religions present it is that I don't have the incredible nerve to think that the whole universe is centered on the human species. When there will only be us and coakroaches living on earth, due to "human superiority, domination and control", let's see which specie is the fittest for survival. Methinks a smidge of humbleness is sorely needed these days.

John, can you guarantee that my home will never been made unsuitable for life for centuries from the fall of an atomic bomb ? Can you guarantee that the air I breathe, the water I drink, the cereals I eat are and will remain free of pollution ? That the engineered products used to grow crops present absolutely no danget to human health ? No ? Then you and I do not control progress, we merely are subjected to it. And suffer its unexpected consequences.

Chewie, it is incredibly difficult to a human being to try to set aside personal and cultural beliefs - and there is always the great risk of getting undone when one of your fundamental beliefs is proven false. Seeing the universe through personal/cultural/religious filters is probably a human way of self-protection. If I can believe in nothing, what is real ?

On that, guys, have a good time, I'm off ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[johnny]

Have a good holliday Moiraine.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: I use the natual world as an example to show that homosexual behavior is natural. No, it is not used for breeding, but it does occur naturally. Whether animals practice it for social reasons or pleasure is immaterial. They practice it.

And I have made REPEATED posts that make using this argument a mockery.

1.Canibalism
2.Infanticide
3.Incest
4.Stealing a spouse from another through violence
5.Spouse killing partner after sex

All occur in nature.

Simply because an animal does something is no justification for human behaviour.

This is one "parry" you have completely ignored. [/QUOTE]Wholesale murder their own species?

The whole argument was what is or is not natural. Things that are widespread in the natural world are by definition 'not unnatural'.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Yorick: And canibalism and the other "natural occurences" like theft, murder, rape and the like?

Er Yorick - you live in New York!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Methinks a smidge of humbleness is sorely needed these days.

That's one of the main changes knowing Christs gives you:

1.You are NOT saved or made righteous by anything you've done. Jesus has done it all.
2.All humans are created equal, and as imperfect as each other.
3.God could wipe everything out tomorrow and start again.
4.Compared to God, or the expanse of the universe, what is humanity? Of what importance is a human?

Yet, though humbling it's also self esteem building:

1.You are individually loved by God.
2.He loved you enough to make you, and die for you.
3.He wants to spend eternity with you.


Throughout the bible, humility is extolled and honoured.
Even in other cultures like ancient Greece which had the concept of "hubris", was the awareness that pride is a weakness. Based on nothing, and certain to contribute to a downfall.

Check these out as proof:

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

James 4:6
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

Luke 14:11
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

---------

old testament:


Psalm 18:27
(to God) "You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty."


Psalm 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD;
therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.
He guides the humble in what is right
and teaches them his way.
All the ways of the LORD are loving and faithful
for those who keep the demands of his covenant

Isaiah 2:11
The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.

Isaiah 66:2
Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD . "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.

Daniel 10:12
Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.


-------
from Jesus:

Matthew 11:28
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

[Timber Loftis]

Great way to cut through the fat and make a point, Donut. It is true, the Natural/unnatural argument was about whether homosexuality was "natural," but somewhere along the way go flipped on its ear to become a discussion of how completely "natural" behaviors are eschewed by the "higher minded" human species.

On that note, I'd like to comment to John D., Morainne (what a way to escape a debate ), and Yorick. Yes, humans are dominant. No, they are by and large not responsible. And, while they have developed differently than other animals, there is no reasonable argument they are "better," "more advanced," "superior," or "more evolved." In fact, they may be inherently lesser, as humans are capable of deliberate evil, whereas all other species are basically instinctual and, ergo, innocent. I certainly think Dolphins are socially, and perhaps intellectually, superior.

Tho opposable thumb and oversized brains are great tools, but we have turned them by and large toward more evil ends than good ends. Maybe we have used them to make some great advances for the species, but we have also used them to subjigate a large percentage of the species. And, all the while we have been decimating other species.

Anyway, I know this may bother a lot of (most of) you folks, but I just wanted to point out that I take exception to all of the "superiority" talk when it comes to humans. I think we are at best slightly inferior and, at worse, not worth anything much at all.

[Timber Loftis]

Allow me to retort re: God's love and all that:

Babble, Babble, Bitch, Bitch
Rebel, Rebel, Party, Party
Sex, sex, sex, don't forget the violence
Blah, blah, blah
Got your lovey-dovey sad and lonely
Stick your stupid slogan and
Everybody sing along

Babble, Babble, Bitch, Bitch
Rebel, Rebel, Party, Party
Sex, sex, sex, don't forget the violence
Blah, blah, blah
Got your lovey-dovey sad and lonely
Stick your stupid slogan and
Everybody sing along


-- m manson
_______________________________________________
So what's your point, TL??
1. Where did the long-winded philosophical quotes out of left field come from?
2. If they aren't being quoted as philosophy, are they being offered as truth?
3. My philosopher is as good as any other.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I think we are at best slightly inferior and, at worse, not worth anything much at all.

Sorry to hear you have such a low self opinion, but you really should speak for yourself when using such derision.

And while we're quoting purveyors of aggressive music, why don't we quote the real McKoy instead of half-arsed fakes like Manson. Try some Henry Rollins on for size:

Low Self Opinion - Henry Rollins

I think you got a low self opinion man
I see you standing all by yourself
Unable to express the pain of your distress
You withdraw deeper inside
You alienate yourself
And everybody else
They wonder what's on your mind
They got so tired of you
And your self ridicule
They wrote you off and left you behind

You sleep alone at night
You never wonder why
All this bitterness wells up inside you
You always victimize
So you can criticize yourself
And all those around you

The hatred you project
Does nothing to protect you
You leave yourself so exposed
You want to open up
When someone says
Lighten up
You find all your doors closed
Get yourself a break from self rejection
Try some introspection
And you just might find
It's not so bad and anyway
At the end of the day
All you have is yourself and your mind
The self hatred that blinds you
Binds you grinds you keeps you down
The world falls down around you
You build up walls around you
You wear disgust like a crown

If you could see the you that I see
When I see you seeing me
You'd see yourself so differently
Believe me

I know the self doubt that runs inside your mind
I know the self that treats you so unkind

If you could see the you that I see
When I see you
You would see things differently
I assure you

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: 1. Where did the long-winded philosophical quotes out of left field come from? 2. If they aren't being quoted as philosophy, are they being offered as truth? 3. My philosopher is as good as any other.

1.From posts like this : "I cannot believe in a God as current religions present it is that I don't have the incredible nerve to think that the whole universe is centered on the human species."

A Christ centred worldview puts God at the centre, not humans.

2.They are being posted as indicative of values extolled in Christianity, within the bible. As such it is TRUTH about core values of the faith, which is why it was presented, accurately, as truth.

3.Not if you measure the fruits. How many followers does yours have? How many suicides has yours prevented? How many claim following his words have changed their lives for the better? How many claim his words have healed them?


4.Why are you responding in such a hostile manner when you claimed you were not going to respond in kind again?

5.Have you checked your pulse?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Donut: The whole argument was what is or is not natural. Things that are widespread in the natural world are by definition 'not unnatural'.

The whole argument was not "This is not natural" but "This is not natural for humans".

As such, we need to look at humanity, using the criterea I indicated, rather than all of existence, for what is "natural" to humanity.