Your proffesional opinion about the weaker classes

[TaSSaDaR]

A generic fighter can be even easier to play that its certain kit. A Kensai would last even less against a thief, because a generic fighter would have a better chance to aviod being backstabbed. And a thief can backstab&immediately go invis, providing that you anyway wouldn't be able to hit/kill him. Generic fighter, at least, has a better chance to survive till the thief runs out of potions/charges [img]smile.gif[/img]

Paladins are weaker version of fighters, and their only resort against them are cleric spells. Prebuffing is always great. But still a fighter CAN beat a paladin, providing the fighter makes all his saving throws against Hold Persons etc [img]smile.gif[/img]

One situation where a pureclass fighter sucks compared to its kits is a fight against a mage. Kensai can remove mage's stoneskins faster, Berserker can become to many-many-many things, Wizard Slayer is a WS by definition.... But if you play correctly (and with some cheese) and attack the mage only if you are able to damage him (waiting for protections to run off etc) then no problem! Mage dies. And don't forget that a plain fighter can use ranged weapons to full extent, as compared to kensai/berserker, and arrows of dispelling are not so rare...

What I am trying to say is that EVERY single class can and will become a powerhouse kick-a** bio-bulldozer at high levels. Point.

[Zarr]

Originally posted by LennonCook: Shapeshifter (Pre rebalancing). Undead Hunter. Monk who never levels up. Mage with 3 in all stats, using no girdle, ring, or cloak. Sorc who doesn't use any spells.

I'm interested LennonCook, why Undead Hunter? I'm playing one now and he's very strong. Immune to hold okay not that big but immune to level drain - fantastic! And you get large bonuses to hit undead of which there is alot in this game. The only drawback no lay on hands - big deal! You have two curelight wounds bhaalspawns abilites for much of the game which make up for that. Also you can turn undead at a higher level than a normal paladin or cavalier and at high levels can buff yourself with priest spells! Doesn't sound like a weak class to me! So why do you think it's weak? IMO all the Paladin kits are VERY good! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[waverider]

I play the 'best' class [img]smile.gif[/img]
i prefer a hard game with a hard class
people thing because the have readed the
info they know a class you need to play at least
2 chapter before you can know if a class is good or bad
and then another thing 'good' or 'bad'
it will depend on the men/woman what class suits her/him
best and not at all, ive played an mp with a duude with same class
he died in first chapter ... i didnt ... like i said it will depend
on you if you like a class or not [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Raistlin Majere]

Originally posted by slicer15: quote: Originally posted by Raistlin Majere: Straight Figther, maybe? try soloing one...not easy. lets try a few examples: Fighter vs. mage=dead fighter [img]smile.gif[/img]

Not necessarily. I once had a straight human fighter as my PC (don't know what came over me) but he was powerful. Granted, I didn't solo him, but he could still beat a wizard by himself. With the right resistance potions and armour, a fighter can cream a wizard. It all depends on how you fight and the situation of the battle. Sure, a mage can defeat a fighter, but vice versa is just as feasible. [/QUOTE]what i meant was that were there two equally skilled PC's(and the characters have the same exp. points) fighting against each other, than the mage would most likely win, since the mage could cast all kinds of protections and spells which deal MASSIVE damage(dragons breath and ADHW for example, assuming that the characters were not in the same party), or lower saving throws and stun, instant kill or blind the fighter(which makes it extremely easy to kill someone. since the fighter wont be able to hit the mage(do arrows of dispelling bybass PFMW or absolute immunity? not sure...), how can he beat him? if one wanted to get even more cheesy, the mage could cast invisibilty right after the fighter buffs him self with potions and then just wait for them to wear off(this, of course, is hyphothetical, since very few would have the patience to wait for many hours for one or two buffs to wear off). granted, a fighter CAN be powerful(just as any class can), it would just be pretty hard to solo one since a straight fighter has no special abilities, thus i would say a fighter is the "weakest" class, at least on its own. in a party, well, thats a different story...

[Raistlin Majere]

Originally posted by TaSSaDaR: A generic fighter can be even easier to play that its certain kit. A Kensai would last even less against a thief, because a generic fighter would have a better chance to aviod being backstabbed. And a thief can backstab&immediately go invis, providing that you anyway wouldn't be able to hit/kill him. Generic fighter, at least, has a better chance to survive till the thief runs out of potions/charges [img]smile.gif[/img] Paladins are weaker version of fighters, and their only resort against them are cleric spells. Prebuffing is always great. But still a fighter CAN beat a paladin, providing the fighter makes all his saving throws against Hold Persons etc [img]smile.gif[/img] One situation where a pureclass fighter sucks compared to its kits is a fight against a mage. Kensai can remove mage's stoneskins faster, Berserker can become to many-many-many things, Wizard Slayer is a WS by definition.... But if you play correctly (and with some cheese) and attack the mage only if you are able to damage him (waiting for protections to run off etc) then no problem! Mage dies. And don't forget that a plain fighter can use ranged weapons to full extent, as compared to kensai/berserker, and arrows of dispelling are not so rare... What I am trying to say is that EVERY single class can and will become a powerhouse kick-a** bio-bulldozer at high levels. Point.

1)A kensai would only have to gulp a potion of invulnerability to have nearly, if not better, AC. 2 ac here and there(since the best armor has a -2 ac, i believe, and PoI grants an ac of 0), doesnt affect that much.

2)Paladins arent necessarily the "weaker" version, they just may not have the edge in a fight against a fighter, since they specialize in fighting mundane creatures.

3)It doesnt really matter what kit the fighter has if the mage is prepared for the fight...(not sure if the WS's miscast magic bypasses certain protections, such as PFMW or absolute immunity/mantle(s))

[SixOfSpades]

Weak(est) characters:

• Straight Paladin (not really weak in itself, but all of the kits are better)
• Straight Fighter (the Berserker, Kensai, and Archer leave the pureclass in the dust)
• Straight Cleric
• Straight Druid (easily trumped by the Totemic Druid)
• Bounty Hunter (can Maze 3 enemies per day, if they fail their Save or don't have Magic Resistance. Whoopee)
• Diviner (say goodbye to Find Familiar, Flame Arrow, Spider Spawn, Wish, etc)
• Invoker (adios to the previous spells, and also Greater Malison, Emotion: Hopelessness, Chaos, & Feeblemind)
• Transmuter (just try a Solo game without Protection from Petrification, Resist Fear, Dispel Magic, Breach, Lower Resistance, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from Magic Weapons, Spell Turning, Pierce Shield, and Spell Trap)
• Enchanter (Name a spell that actually hurts the enemy, and the odds are 4 to 1 that you can't use it. Better hope the enemy doesn't have Death Spells.)
• Wizard Slayer ("I have sacrificed the ability to use half of the best items in the game in order to kick ass against wizards. Now I need to go find a Monk to kill this wizard for me, while I stand over here and gaze longingly at this healing potion.")
• Beast Master (So--the ability to cast Animal Summoning is worth being reduced to Shadow Dragon Scale and Blackblood? Is Call Lightning not worth the spell slot or something?)
• Shapeshifter ("See, I'm just like a normal Druid--except I can't wear armor--and I'm also just like those Greater Wolfweres in the Windspear Hills! And boy, they sure were a challenge, weren't they?")
• All Bards except the Blade ("Hi there! Name any Multiclass character in existence, and they'll be sure to kick our collective butt!")

Raistlin: The Wizard Slayer's ability to cause Spell Failure is just like the enchantment on a weapon: It must actually make contact with the target. Spells such as Mantle and PfMW will block it, but Stoneskin will not.

[Indemaijinj]

I disagree a bit with you on the Enchanter my dear SixofSpades.

Sure the invocation school is powerful, but it is not essential in the same way as the abjuration school is.

There are plenty of damage spells outside the invocation group and many of them are very good (do we need to mention ADHW). Really the only place where the enchanter gets really shafted spell-wise is in the level 1 spells department where they miss out both Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb. Sure Larloch's Minor Drain can restore your hit points, but that spell sucks!

Actually the worst thing about giving up invocation is not losing a damage spell, but rather a summon. I mean, it really hurts not being able to cast Mordenkainen's Sword.


But then again, I think it says something that there is not a single enchantment/charm spell among the top three spell levels.

[DJG]

Originally posted by Faceman: Swashbuckler - "I am a thief but can't backstab. Yeah I'm such a tough fighter-badass but I can't wear more than ;eather armor"

Can I just point out that my swashbuckler is one of the post powerful characters in my game? Let me tell you his usual form.....
(Note: I'm excluding Watcher's Keep bonuses, I haven't done that yet!)

19 Strength
20 Dexterity
18 Constitution
14 Intelligence
6 Wisdom
21 Charisma (+2, Blade of Roses)

Armour: Shadow Dragon Scale
Main Weapon: The Blade of Roses
Off Hand Weapon: The Equaliser
Helmet: Some Ioun Stone (+1 AC, +10 Hp or something)
Necklace: Periapt of Proof Against Poison
Belt: Belt of the Interial Barrier
Cloak: Cloak of the Sewers (Nymph Cloak when buying stuff)
Boots: Boots of the Elvenkind
Helmet: Thieves' Hood
Ring 1: Ring of Gaxx
Ring 2: Ring of Regeneration
Quick Slot 1: Potions of Superior Healing (Or 'Sendai's Own' if I have any)
Quick Slot 2: Scrolls of 'Mislead'
Quick Slot 3: Any Other Random Scrolls

Also note the fact that he can easily beat Minsc to shreds (Or chunks technically! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) in ToB. There seem to be an abundance of Mislead scrolls in ToB that he can use. I kit Minsc out with the best stuff I can find, and he never wins in my little duels. And a few 'Whirlwind Attacks' don't go amiss either.

And if anyone has any suggestions on how to improve my Swashbuckler, suggest away by the way!

[Raistlin Majere]

Originally posted by DJG: quote: Originally posted by Faceman: Swashbuckler - "I am a thief but can't backstab. Yeah I'm such a tough fighter-badass but I can't wear more than ;eather armor"

Can I just point out that my swashbuckler is one of the post powerful characters in my game? Let me tell you his usual form.....
(Note: I'm excluding Watcher's Keep bonuses, I haven't done that yet!)

19 Strength
20 Dexterity
18 Constitution
14 Intelligence
6 Wisdom
21 Charisma (+2, Blade of Roses)

Armour: Shadow Dragon Scale
Main Weapon: The Blade of Roses
Off Hand Weapon: The Equaliser
Helmet: Some Ioun Stone (+1 AC, +10 Hp or something)
Necklace: Periapt of Proof Against Poison
Belt: Belt of the Interial Barrier
Cloak: Cloak of the Sewers (Nymph Cloak when buying stuff)
Boots: Boots of the Elvenkind
Helmet: Thieves' Hood
Ring 1: Ring of Gaxx
Ring 2: Ring of Regeneration
Quick Slot 1: Potions of Superior Healing (Or 'Sendai's Own' if I have any)
Quick Slot 2: Scrolls of 'Mislead'
Quick Slot 3: Any Other Random Scrolls

Also note the fact that he can easily beat Minsc to shreds (Or chunks technically! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) in ToB. There seem to be an abundance of Mislead scrolls in ToB that he can use. I kit Minsc out with the best stuff I can find, and he never wins in my little duels. And a few 'Whirlwind Attacks' don't go amiss either.

And if anyone has any suggestions on how to improve my Swashbuckler, suggest away by the way! [/QUOTE]some item related spoilers
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wondering how you are wearing the thieves hood and the Ioun stone [img]smile.gif[/img] . anyway, you could replace the Ioun stone your using with Wong Fei's Ioun stone(+1ac, +15 hp and regenerate 1 hp every 6 secs) and the shadow dragon scale with the Grandmasters Armor(movement speed same as boots of haste, ac 1), human flesh(ac 3, +4 saving throws and +20 magic resistance) or the studded leather armor of thorns(ac 1, 1d4 fire damage to attacker). The amulet of cheetah speed would make you even faster, but thats really not necessary anymore. im not completely sure if you were 100% serious in asking for advice, but apparently i gave some anyway

[ 06-03-2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Raistlin Majere ]

[DJG]

Originally posted by Raistlin Majere: wondering how you are wearing the thieves hood and the Ioun stone [img]smile.gif[/img] . anyway, you could replace the Ioun stone your using with Wong Fei's Ioun stone(+1ac, +15 hp and regenerate 1 hp every 6 secs) and the shadow dragon scale with the Grandmasters Armor(movement speed same as boots of haste, ac 1), human flesh(ac 3, +4 saving throws and +20 magic resistance) or the studded leather armor of thorns(ac 1, 1d4 fire damage to attacker). The amulet of cheetah speed would make you even faster, but thats really not necessary anymore. im not completely sure if you were 100% serious in asking for advice, but apparently i gave some anyway

I was serious on asking for advice actually! Excuse my mistake of wearing not only a completely useless hood, but also an Ioun Stone. I like the Shadow Dragon Scale, it's AC 1 and I like the Acid Resistance. I like the suggestion on the Ioun Stone, if someone hides in shadows I usually Mislead....

human flesh(ac 3, +4 saving throws and +20 magic resistance)

I forgot to mention that I'm a Chaotic Good didn't I? Silly me! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

And thanks for the advice!

[ 06-03-2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: DJG ]