How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

[Yorick]

How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.
Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?
Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.
Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?
Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:
(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).
(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?
Have you had a supernatural experience?
Perhaps you have balanced all the above?


I am interested in the process by which you come to a conclusion. Thus there is no right or wrong. I do not wish to engage in a discussion or argument about the merits or correctness of the said beliefs, just how and why you came to hold them. There will be aspects I have not included, so do not feel limited by those listed.

Post away! Post away!

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 08-28-2001).]

[AliCat]

Ooooh, and I thought I asked lots of questions!!!

Okay, to summarize, I look at the worldview ideas alone, first. I pass those ideas through my mental filter, and either agree, disagree, or just watch with interest. I don't see much of a point in following a worldview if you agree with its practitioners but disagree with its ideas -- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I might then look at the practitioners, but "with a grain of salt", as I think it's only human that each one filters the primary worldview down through their own mentality and picks and chooses how to follow or apply it (regardless of what the priest or leader says). Religious practitioners are never clones, regardless of the group all following the same belief. Some practitioners of nearly every religion are likely to be inspiring people, just as other practitioners would steer you away entirely by their actions.

To some extent, I'll look at the originator and his/her way of life (if it's available -- for instance, who started the various religions of American Indian tribes or nations???).

Mostly, though, I either like the ideas within a worldview or I don't.

Gosh, you still have a lot of questions... um...
"Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella?"
To some extent, yes (the bits and pieces I like!). To put it one way, just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you wouldn't maybe find some tenets of Taoism or Zen Buddhism to make some sense and be useful (and provide perspective on a matter that perhaps the Bible didn't address).
a) I don't assume that I know more than the originator -- I happen to have an open mind, that's all.
b) Hard to answer! Sorry.
Have I had a supernatural experience? Hmmmm... yes and no. Subtle ones, yes. Anything as concrete as voices or visions, no. More like feelings. I think like a lot of people it would be a heck of a lot simpler if God (or Goddess, or the Great Spirit, or whomever) would simply step out in front of me and say "here I am" or "do this", but I haven't had so concrete an experience. Instead we have the books and stories and collected writings of others who report having this happen to them -- but that's them (not little old me). Faith can exist just as well (if not better) in the presence of proof as it can in the absence of it.

Just as an aside, that's one thing that appealed to me about the David Eddings' series including The Belarion -- the gods in these stories would often manifest themselves within a heroic group, and were active and present and tangible in the world and even had a lovely sense of humor in certain cases.

[Yorick]

Hey thanks AliCat. Very interesting.

Alas, you and I are alone in here at the moment

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[WOLFGIR]

Oh man, i feel a headache comming... erhm.

When I hear of a worldview I have to admit, that I "steal" or loan bits I like, or see fit with s value that I have, or I simple reevluate my own. I have so far never truly fallen for any worldview sofar, and maybe thats not the point with them,but to give you hints and ideas?

When I first discover a new worldview, I try to read or find out the ideas alone. That way I try to see if it is basicly as I feel or if I feel enlightened by it. Something new that I have missed or is it based on something I can´t agree too?

The next step is to see how it is in real life. The practiotioners, and are they way out of there and have distorted the feel I got from the original ideas, I don´t call myself for a follower of that idea or worldview. I try to see wich pat is functional for me, or which ideas got me thinking more.

The practioners can also be the one that makes you reevaluate the concept thinking aof an ide both for better or worse, yet I´m a bit of a lonewolf, and I tend to stay away from masses of people since I think that the more people shouting glory glory or bab bad, the less the true argumentation o do better is lost in a masshyptnotism that you ae doing the right thing, or see a thing more clear than others. I prefer little small talks with peope where one can state an idea or point of view without bein interupted. The net is erfect . If it gets out of hand, just type, oups, my coffe is boiling! (OK, crude joke) But you see what I´m ggetting at I hope.

To answer the A question. I try to see what parts o an original idea that makes me reevaluate or upgrade my point of view of the world. Is it basicly the same, it has nothing to offer me. I want new ideas or new concepts to think, debate or even argue about. Can I know more than the originar? Of course, who is to say that one person got it right? But if it i so.. I don+t know or I don´t care. Some ideas are too perfect for me, since I have a bit of a pessimistic worldview as it is, I like the ones that tend to admit to problems, rather than futile ideas of reaching Utopia within the next month!

b) This ne i don´t even know if I can answer for you Yorrick. My mind sometimess work alone, and even leave me behind sometimes. My behavioural life is however not that close the my worldview. As I stated above, I´m rather pessimistic in that ne, however I don´t feel that I have the right o act out that on all people or treat them after my point of view. I try to fight the pessimistic worldview I have, case that worldview isn´t fun. You don´t have to believ in that everythin is going to be alright or gloriuos for trying to make it so regardless.

My balance is not existing, my worldview change everyday, and so does my mood, and as person, thoose two things have o much to do with whom I am, i can´t have a balance, cause that would mean to give up on one of them. Probably going to be clearer if you know me, but that is had, cause i sometimes wonder if I know myself well enough to explain that

Supernatural experience. I don´t know. We sometimes make up a "perfect" solution to describe things so we can understand it. I might have, but might also have accepted it for something else.

I have no balance. Chaos is to much part of me, and chaos is balance and no balance at the same time!

Well if you gottenthis far, congratulations. I hope you can find some interesting in all my mumbling!
Cheers


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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

[Fljotsdale]

How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?
Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.

If I am aware of them, yes, to some extent. For instance, I just don’t want to know about Aleistair Crowley’s views. Even his name fills me with revulsion – and I have never read anything he has written, so it is illogical, and obviously because of the influence of the thinking of other people whom I respect. (gosh, this is making me look bad!)

Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?

No. Often, the ‘best’ worldviews leave the individuals concerned as apparent ‘losers’, (look at Jesus).

Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.

Well, you have to, don’t you? Again, look at Jesus and look at the record of christianity, which is enough to put anyone off!

Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherent within a philosophy attract you?

Um. I hate the word ‘philosophy’. My little brain says ‘complicated’ and switches off.

Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:

Doesn’t everyone?

(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).

(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?

Um. None of the above, lol! I just glean thoughts, ideas, opinions, whatever, from a wide variety of sources, often forgotten where from, and weave ‘em into a tapestry as the warp to my own weft of thoughtful consideration and illogical bias.

Have you had a supernatural experience?

Sigh. Maybe. Maybe not. Don’t know. The brain does funny things. But if you mean have I been visited by angels or things of that sort, then definitely not.

Perhaps you have balanced all the above?

You decide when you have read the above, lol!

There will be aspects I have not included, so do not feel limited by those listed.

I’m sticking with the list. Saves me having to think! I was up VERY late last night.




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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 08-30-2001).]

[Yorick]

Wolfgir, fascinating post! Thankyou my friend. Fjlotsdale, you too.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[AliCat]

Rather a shame no one else is posting here.... what about you, Yorick? How do you answer those questions you posed?

[Yorick]

How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners?

Not intentionally as I find this can be misleading. All humans are imperfect. I do look at the joy, peace, happiness and perspective it seems to bring them though. It can be hard looking past negative actions of a practitioner, but I do try. Having a father who is a minister quickly alerts you to the knowledge that even "holy and wise men" are flawed.

Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?

See above.

Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.

In my case my eyes are firmly on the originator. Sometimes I see aspects of him in his followers. Only by "knowing him" can I see this though.

Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?

Yes. Ideas do. However I do look at the whole picture. At the ideas themself, at the reasons one should take on the ideas, the day to day application of these, the negative things it is reacting against, and what the personal result taking on those ideas have in my life.


Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:
(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).

I generally have found that a view adhered to by large numbers of people over many years, has to include even seemingly small details to work. Replace grace with Karma in Christianity and Jesus death makes no sense. Add grace into the Hindu Karmic system and differing rebirths don't seem fair. Place pantheism into Islam and Allah no longer is an independent personality seperate from creation.

That said, within a codified faith it is perfectly concievable that we should be able to know more than it's early believers. In Christianity, though time obscures older facts, we have more record of the way God has worked. We can view the gospels in context, with hindsight, against history, and against things that occur today. That said, physically knowing Jesus in Palestine would have been astounding.


(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?

My behaviour is directly influenced by my belief system. Were I not of the persuasion I am, I would be a hedonistic, drug abusing, philandering, totally arrogant yet freaked out rock and rolling musician. Instead I am the humblest person I know. Humility is my middle name. No-one is more humble than I....er hang on..

Seriously my faith changes my actions. I draw inner strength, creative inspiration, solace, companionship and wonderment directly from my relationship with my God. Experiences are magnified. Looking at the patterns on a leaf becomes similar to looking at a masters painting for me. Thus I stop and look at the leaf - belief dictates behaviour.

Have you had a supernatural experience?

I have had friends who claim to have seen Angels - fallen and otherwise. I have a friend who was cured of a sight problem in one eye at a healing service. To the point that they had headaches etc. from the influx of visual reception. I have another aquaintance healed of chronic back complaints, and another from cancer.

Compared to this, no I have not.

However when I look back at key moments in my life I see direction. I see key things occurring that were insignificant at the time, yet became ultimately important in shaping who I am. I also have been saved from death and serious injury on more than one occasion - from car accidents, electrocution, and an intestinal problem/blood loss. Others would see coincidence, I see a God.

Perhaps you have balanced all the above?

Balance is an aim of mine though not always attained.




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: Seriously my faith changes my actions. I draw inner strength, creative inspiration, solace, companionship and wonderment directly from my relationship with my God. Experiences are magnified. Looking at the patterns on a leaf becomes similar to looking at a masters painting for me. Thus I stop and look at the leaf - belief dictates behaviour.

You don't need belief for that, Yorick. I've always 'looked at the leaf'. As a child, the natural world was a source of endless fascination to me, and still is.
Most people never 'see the leaf', the blade of grass, the flowering weed in the gutter. They live cocooned in their own minds.

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[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: You don't need belief for that, Yorick. I've always 'looked at the leaf'. As a child, the natural world was a source of endless fascination to me, and still is. Most people never 'see the leaf', the blade of grass, the flowering weed in the gutter. They live cocooned in their own minds.

I'm talking the change in MY actions Fjlotsdale. My belief dictates my behaviour. I'm not speaking for or about anyone else. I'm very aware that others may not need belief to do this. A painter, photographer or nature lover for example. I am however talking about the impact my personal perspective has on my actions.

This is not meant to be a "my way is right" thread, but an exploration of the processes by which people come to perceptional conclusions. There is no right or wrong here.

Actually perhaps this thread would have had more responses if I'd posted this:

right ok...on other threads i'm the philospoher. everybody knows i'm really smart woof woof meeoww... ok....freud kicks a$$...what i want to know is...but this isn't bout freud...nah.. ok which potatoe is best

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!