The Line. A Serious Queston for Ziroc.

[Nachtrafe]

OK...I have a serious question Ziroc.

Why is this "Totally funny!" an Sir Kenyth's pacifist joke 'insulting, degrading, meanspirited', and deleted. The apparent, cited reason being that it was 'potentially hurtful'. Well stop the presses. Just walking down the street is 'potentially hurtful'. Any post on this board, up to and including, "Hi, how are you today?' is 'potentially hurtful'. Where do you draw the line?

I have been feeling, in the last couple of days, that I am being penalized for having a strong opinion. I have wanted to post on several threads, but was worried that expressing my strong opinions would get me in trouble with the powers that be. While these serious threads were still on GD, I know I was one of the people who was escalating things. And I did my best to make amends. Since you have created this forum, I have done everything possible to refrain from personal insults. I have still expressed strong opinions, and in very strong terms. But with the current atmosphere, I am nervous about doing even that.

To be perfectly honesy Ziroc, when I first got involved in IW, I was a very low key poster. I was a member for over a month before I even hit 5 posts. But when the war happened and serious threads started popping up, I immediately got involved. I have made friends here, met people I like and respect, and it is because of those threads, and this forum.

And now, everyone is walking on eggshells and almost seem afraid to post their opinions for fear that they will be banned. Others are leaving. Some came back, and I am glad of that. The atmosphere is a thousand times more tense than it was a week ago. Now, I, for one, have no desire to be either banned, or to leave. But, if all that is left is fluff, then I will have no reason to post. And currently, GD is mostly fluff. I understand that this is backlash from the stress that has been going on, but its still a factor.

Anyway..the point of all this is that I would just like to know where the line is? Are we still allowed to post our opinions? Are we still allowed to do it in strong terms? Are we still allowed to engage in those spirited debates? I understand the need to avoid personal attacks, and to have respect. But one poster's 'personal opinion' is anothers 'personal attack'. So where is the line being drawn?

I hope this doesn't sound belligerent, or out of line. I am genuinely curious and upset. I feel like I have found a second home in IW. But, in my first, real home, I dont tiptoe around for fear of upsetting people's sensibilities, and I dont believe I should have to here.

Thanks in advance for the time.

Nachtrafe

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: And now, everyone is walking on eggshells and almost seem afraid to post their opinions for fear that they will be banned. Others are leaving. Some came back, and I am glad of that. The atmosphere is a thousand times more tense than it was a week ago. Now, I, for one, have no desire to be either banned, or to leave. But, if all that is left is fluff, then I will have no reason to post. And currently, GD is mostly fluff. I understand that this is backlash from the stress that has been going on, but its still a factor. Anyway

Give it time mate. When we get sick or injured we have to lie down and heal, then get up and walk slowly, then maybe run and then get into a kerfuffle and end up back in hospital where we have to lie down and heal, then get up and walk slowly then......



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[Liliara]

I think that the general idea is not to offend anyone. The best way I think I can describe it is to be extremely politically correct. Like in everyday life. No HBO style for a little bit. I think the mods are being pretty fair though, at least it is for both sides, unlike the real world.

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member


"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

[Yorick]

In the months before I left Australia it was not politically correct to be politically correct. That is it was politically correct to be politically incorrect.

Needless say to confused it me did.

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe: OK...I have a serious question Ziroc. Why is this "Totally funny!" an Sir Kenyth's pacifist joke 'insulting, degrading, meanspirited', and deleted. The apparent, cited reason being that it was 'potentially hurtful'. Well stop the presses. Just walking down the street is 'potentially hurtful'. Any post on this board, up to and including, "Hi, how are you today?' is 'potentially hurtful'. Where do you draw the line? I have been feeling, in the last couple of days, that I am being penalized for having a strong opinion. I have wanted to post on several threads, but was worried that expressing my strong opinions would get me in trouble with the powers that be. While these serious threads were still on GD, I know I was one of the people who was escalating things. And I did my best to make amends. Since you have created this forum, I have done everything possible to refrain from personal insults. I have still expressed strong opinions, and in very strong terms. But with the current atmosphere, I am nervous about doing even that. To be perfectly honesy Ziroc, when I first got involved in IW, I was a very low key poster. I was a member for over a month before I even hit 5 posts. But when the war happened and serious threads started popping up, I immediately got involved. I have made friends here, met people I like and respect, and it is because of those threads, and this forum. And now, everyone is walking on eggshells and almost seem afraid to post their opinions for fear that they will be banned. Others are leaving. Some came back, and I am glad of that. The atmosphere is a thousand times more tense than it was a week ago. Now, I, for one, have no desire to be either banned, or to leave. But, if all that is left is fluff, then I will have no reason to post. And currently, GD is mostly fluff. I understand that this is backlash from the stress that has been going on, but its still a factor. Anyway..the point of all this is that I would just like to know where the line is? Are we still allowed to post our opinions? Are we still allowed to do it in strong terms? Are we still allowed to engage in those spirited debates? I understand the need to avoid personal attacks, and to have respect. But one poster's 'personal opinion' is anothers 'personal attack'. So where is the line being drawn? I hope this doesn't sound belligerent, or out of line. I am genuinely curious and upset. I feel like I have found a second home in IW. But, in my first, real home, I dont tiptoe around for fear of upsetting people's sensibilities, and I dont believe I should have to here. Thanks in advance for the time. Nachtrafe

As I posted here:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ML/000105.html

And Here:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ML/000001.html

The line is really simple, no personal attacks, and no attacks on someones beliefs/race/religion/creed. That Joke post may have been funny to some, but it also made many people mad.

No matter what I do here, I will put someones nose out of joint. I have learned that, and except it.. SUCKS, but It must be done. Ironworks hasn't become one of the best forums on the net for poor management. Our Mods and I don't take sides, and try to look at each post from a 'neutral' position.


PS: Just for future reference (For everyone), please email me privately for questions like these.



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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

[Moiraine]

Nachtrafe (happy to meet you, BTW ), I've been following the exact opposite reasoning than you did !

Two weeks, one week ago, I was getting more and more afraid to post, as I am also a person with strong opinions. Then at some point, 3 days ago, I decided that no, I won't let others throw me out of here, I am as entitled to my opinions as everyone else in here, so I WILL check and double-check my writings so as to keep in the area of personal respect, but I WILL post what I think and feel with no fear.

Now, what happened yesterday from Ziroc and the Mods make me feel much better here ! I know that I will be protected from disrespect towards me - and, even more important, I KNOW that others will be protected aggainst my eventual crossing of the rules. I am human, not perfect. I have strong opinions and a temper. If I get banned, I will submit willingly - the possibility that I may get banned is the very guarantee that allows me to post freely now.

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The world is my oyster !

[Fljotsdale]

Sometimes, Nachtrafe, the phrase 'politically correct' is not a dirty word, lol! Only sometimes, though! And this is one of those times!

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Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

Originally posted by Moiraine: I will submit willingly.

Submit to the Choc-head!!!



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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Ziroc: Submit to the Choc-head!!!

(Moiraine goes all flat on the floor, all you can see is a puddle-Gnome )

Hi Z. , I'm serious you know, you must not hesitate to ban me or any of us, if we cross the respect line.



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The world is my oyster !

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Nachtrafe (happy to meet you, BTW ), I've been following the exact opposite reasoning than you did ! Two weeks, one week ago, I was getting more and more afraid to post, as I am also a person with strong opinions. Then at some point, 3 days ago, I decided that no, I won't let others throw me out of here, I am as entitled to my opinions as everyone else in here, so I WILL check and double-check my writings so as to keep in the area of personal respect, but I WILL post what I think and feel with no fear. Now, what happened yesterday from Ziroc and the Mods make me feel much better here ! I know that I will be protected from disrespect towards me - and, even more important, I KNOW that others will be protected aggainst my eventual crossing of the rules. I am human, not perfect. I have strong opinions and a temper. If I get banned, I will submit willingly - the possibility that I may get banned is the very guarantee that allows me to post freely now.

The reason why you don't see it just like Nachtrafe is because you didn't live the "rift" per say. The people that were here before last week were just merely posting their opinions when things started to go sour. All of us made calls for it to stop but it didn't. Attacks and insults continued to fly here and there. Now, those attacks were not the result of debating opinion but rather because people started to take things personnally. Some rightfully others not.

Now, those tread like the pacifist joke tread was fine about 2 weeks ago. People just look at them and started laughing. When the mood changed, people started to see those tread as a personnal attack (which they are not).

All here are believers that you can debate the idea and the ideology of someone... so long as you respect the person. Those jokes IMO are not personnal attacks on persons. However, Ziroc said that they are not allowed on this board. So, since I enjoy the privilege of posting on this board, I will respect his judgement call and abide by it.

I'm like you. I do think alot before pressing the submit button. If I wouldn't say it to your face, I won't post it. I've made posts in the past that didn't respect IW policy. I did them because I thought that they needed to be done. It was hard but I'd do it again if I had to... even if it meant that I'd be banned.

That being said, I'm glad that Ziroc put is foot down. It will, in the long run, make this a better place to participate in. Hopefully people that are now reluctant to post or that got banned will come back understanding that they did cross the line and can again participate in this great discussion. But really, that's between Ziroc and them. Regardless how much we might miss them. They have to work out their differences.

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-25-2001).]