Bible Verses Removed From Grand Canyon

[Chewbacca]

The separation of church and state continues.

Story

PHOENIX (Reuters) - After more than three decades at the Grand Canyon, three bronze plaques inscribed with biblical passages have been removed by U.S. park officials over concern that the religious messages violate the U.S. Constitution, officials say. Officials said they had no choice but to remove the plaques from three popular spots at the majestic canyon's busy South Rim after an inquiry was made by the state chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. "They are religious plaques on federal buildings and that's not allowed based on the law," said Maureen Oltrogge, a Grand Canyon National Park spokeswoman on Monday. The plaques are inscribed with passages from the Book of Psalms, specifically, by chapter and verse 68:4, 66:4 and 104.24. The last verse, in the King James Version of the Bible, reads: "O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches." The plaques will be returned this week to their owners, the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary in Phoenix, Oltrogge said. The signs were taken out last week. A statement from the religious group expressed sadness at the decision on the plaques, which they said were created to honour God for the crimson-hued showpiece in northern Arizona that attracts nearly 5 million visitors a year. "We hope and pray that a suitable alternative location will be found for the plaques, so that they will continue to be an asset to the park and a blessing for future visitors," the statement said. Oltrogge said the signs had drawn scattered comment over the years, but that officials decided to review the issue after a February letter from the American Civil Liberties Union. The U.S. Interior Department determined the plaques were inappropriate because of the First Amendment precepts on the separation of church and state. The plaques were put into place by the parks concessionaire for the religious group 33 years ago, set into place at Hermit's Rest, Lookout Studio and Desert View Watchtower scenic overlooks. The group's founder came up with the idea.

[pritchke]

More BS!!!!

If any one opened up the book of Psalms they would see it is more like a book of poetry than a religious book. I guess they are going to remove all poems from literature that mention God as well. Another slap in the face to free thinking, and human creativity.

[ 07-15-2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Cloudbringer]

To pritchke's post: Amen! It's getting downright ridiculous how petty the whole thing is nowadays!

I'm thinking of starting the Church of the Grass Blade and demanding that no public building have a lawn because it's a religious icon. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 07-15-2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Chewbacca]

I suppose if someone chose to appreciate the poetry of the bible in a national park, they could bring their own copy. Or they can buy some private, non-goverment land to set their plaques.

Face it, however one sees the Bible, it is widely considered a religious text, to some the very word of God. It has no place on goverment property as that could be percieved as goverment endorsement of a religion.

[Night Stalker]

But this particular public place has no power to affect policy. This might be a little over zelous of the ACLU.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: But this particular public place has no power to affect policy. This might be a little over zelous of the ACLU.

Perhaps, but I fail to see how the lack of these plaques effects anybody, whereas the placement of the plaques yeilded citizen complaints. I don't want to see Bible quotes at a public sight of natural beauty any more than I want to see them at a courthouse. One can still take a bible to the grand canyon and enjoy it privately all they want.

It's easy to dismiss this as petty or over-zealous, but the principle of the matter still stands. Give percieved goverment endorsement of religion an inch and it might take a mile.

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: But this particular public place has no power to affect policy. This might be a little over zelous of the ACLU.

Perhaps, but I fail to see how the lack of these plaques effects anybody, whereas the placement of the plaques yeilded citizen complaints. I don't want to see Bible quotes at a public sight of natural beauty any more than I want to see them at a courthouse. One can still take a bible to the grand canyon and enjoy it privately all they want.

It's easy to dismiss this as petty or over-zealous, but the principle of the matter still stands. Give percieved goverment endorsement of religion an inch and it might take a mile. [/QUOTE]The thing is I am willing to bet that if it did not say Psalms 68:4, 66:4 and 104.24, It would have been taken as a beautiful piece of text describing the landscape and no one would have said anything. Classic Poets like Robert Burns must be rolling over in there graves. To me it is really cutting into freedom of expression by removing all these plaques with text.

[ 07-15-2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Night Stalker]

You know though, if you removed the references to the source of the quotes, I'm betting they would indistinguishable from any other philisophical poem or quote. Philisophical quotes, even relegious ones, aren't necessarily bad in public places. In government places of buisness - yes, if they are overly dogmatic. But, while religion is a personal thing, it doesn't need to be stricken from public view. That would equate to religious persecution, and against the 1^st.

[Night Stalker]

HEY! Pritchke! You hackin my brain or something!?

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: You know though, if you removed the references to the source of the quotes, I'm betting they would indistinguishable from any other philisophical poem or quote. Philisophical quotes, even relegious ones, aren't necessarily bad in public places. In government places of buisness - yes, if they are overly dogmatic. But, while religion is a personal thing, it doesn't need to be stricken from public view. That would equate to religious persecution, and against the 1st.

Absolutely! I couldn't have said it better myself!
I still maintain that it's a vendetta against things Christian. Seriously, Chewbacca, how long has the park had those plaques and nobody complained? And if someone complained that Smokey the bear was a religious symbol because their ancestors worshipped animal spirits would that have to go too? How far do we go to obliterate all mention or view of things that are associated with Christendom? Are PUBLICLY funded museums supposed to torch their copies of the bible from the first printing presses now?

Bah the whole thing irritates me no end, because I find it a total waste of time and energy and I DO think it's petty attacks for the sake of causing trouble, NOT because someone was highly upset at seeing poetry that was included in the Bible when the Nicene conference decided what books to include. Gee, maybe a nice verse from the Apocrypha would work as it's not in ALL Bibles? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 07-15-2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]