Shapeshifter thread for weimer

[SixOfSpades]

This thread is meant to discuss the Shapeshifter kit; both in its original, BioWare form and Westley Weimer's Rebalanced Shapeshifter MOD.

The first time I read the description of the original Shapeshifter kit, I knew it was a dud. Greater Wolfwere form is VERY nice indeed (except for the low hitpoints compared to a Fighter-type), but you won't last long trying to cast spells if your only defenses are Barkskin and Ironskins. Essentially, your best bet would be to stay in GWW form forever, only coming out of it when you REALLY needed some buffing spells before a fight. Additionally, BioWare never implemented many of the advantages that WWs and GWWs were supposed to have.

Weimer's Rebalancing did MUCH to correct this--Take a quick look at the README to see what he fixed with the WW and GWW forms:

Normal Werewolf: You Were Supposed To Get -------- You Actually Got ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Base Magic Res 20% -------- Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 20% Immunity to Normal Weapons -------- Nothing Paw = 1d12 slashing -------- Paw = 1d6 piercing For the Greater Werewolf ... You Were Supposed To Get -------- You Actually Got ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THAC0 6 -------- Nothing Saves 1/1/1/2/1 -------- Nothing Base Elemental Res 50% -------- Elemental Res *LOCKED AT* 50% Base Magic Res 40% -------- Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 40% Immunity to Normal Weapons -------- Nothing Paw = +3 Weapon -------- Paw = +2 Weapon Paw = 2d8 slashing -------- Paw = 1d6 piercing Regeneration 3 HP / second -------- Nothing

Weimer's version also makes the Shapeshifter's paws immune to Dispel & Remove Magic, which makes the game much more realistic. ("This guy cast a spell and my hands fell off!")

Now, that's what I like about what Weimer did for the Shapeshifter. What I have a problem with it that instead of wholly revamping the kit, Weimer simply changed their Shapeshift Special Ability to not actually Shapeshift the character, but instead to create an item that conferred all the correct properties of being a WW or GWW. In addition, he allowed the Shapeshifter to cast spells while in Wolf form. I dislike this setup for the following reasons:
1) The "paw" created by the Shapeshift "spell" lasts FOREVER, and can be taken on and off as frequently as the user wishes. This renders the original spirit of the kit ("Can shapeshift into Werewolf 5 times per day, and after Level 13 into Greater Werewolf once per day,") completely obsolete. Once you hit Level 13, you can pretty much give up your spells and stay a Greater Wolfwere for the rest of your life. (True, that flaw was common to the BioWare version as well, but it's still unfortunate.)
2) Weimer made the point that since Kuo-Toa, Sahaugain, and Yuan-Ti all cast spells, why can't Werewolves? All of those races have fingers and tongues, and the Werewolves also have lips. I agree with Weimer on this issue, mostly. But I have 4 objections: First off, Mages cannot cast spells when Polymorphed into a Flind or an Ogre, and I'd say an Ogre is a LOT closer to a spellcaster than a Werewolf. There are such things as Ogre-Magi, are there not? Second, the Werewolves and Greater Werewolves already in the game do not cast any kind of spells. Third, if you can talk to people and cast spells while in lupine form, there is never any reason at all to turn Human again. What's the point of a Shapeshifter who never actually Shapeshifts? Fourth and lastly, they don't need this advantage. Right now, Cernd has 131 hitpoints, an AC of -13, Regenerates 24 hp per round, and has a good solid THAC0 at 5 attacks per round. Is Weimer saying that Cernd needs to be able to cast Nature's Beauty and refresh his Ironskins at a moment's notice, as well?
3) Weimer's kit gives the WW and GWW forms the Warrior's HP bonus due to a high CON, instead of the Priest's. As said above, this gives Cernd 131 hp at Level 13. I just ran him right over 2 Spike Traps, and he lost less than half of his health, which of course he regained within seconds. I don't feel Shapeshifters need this advantage--not EVERYBODY is supposed to survive a Chain Contingency loaded with 3 Horrid Wiltings.
4) Weimer felt that the Druid spells lacked the variety of Cleric spells. (I wholly agree with him on this area: The Cleric-only spells outnumber the Druid-only spells by something like 4 to 1.) So he made some Cleric spells available to Druids as well. Personally, I think Chant and Righteous Magic should stay Cleric-only, as they have a "Call-upon-the-Gods" sort of feel to them. Personal opinion may vary, of course, this is only a nitpick.
5) The Level 6 spell Conjure Animals (which can be cast by Clerics as well) was changed; instead of Mountain Bears, the caster got 2 Greater Werebears, which turned out to be very overpowered. This is already being dealt with, although suggestions are still being taken.

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My suggestions for the RE-re-balanced Shapeshifter are as follows:
1) Keep the corrected THAC0, Saving Thows, Magic Resistance, strikes as Magical Weapon, etc. Yes, in Silvanus's name, KEEP THEM.
2) Reestablish the Shapeshifting limit: WW form 5 times (or whatever) per day, GWW form once per day.
3) Change back to only being able to cast spells while in Human form. This brings back the roleplay of morphing to Wolf and back several times a day, but also takes us back to the weakness of the Shapeshifter: Buck naked while casting spells. I suggest a counter-benefit of permanent Barkskin while in Human form. This would grant a base AC of 6, with a further -1 AC bonus for every 4 levels. This would essentially turn their Human form into something like a watered-down Monk: For comparison, Monks have a base AC of 9, with a -1 bonus every 2 levels, and they gain levels faster than Druids.
4) Trying to kill Trolls in GWW form can be problematic if you don't have any Fire Elementals left, to say nothing of the Chromatic Demon. Since WWs and GWWs have fingers and opposable thumbs, I say they should be allowed to use weapons, provided there's some sort of penalty. Perhaps they can only be put in your offhand? (Although that would rule out Darts and Slings, and I can see a GWW huckin' rocks at enemies.)
5) While NOT using a weapon, I say bring on the Gauntlets of Crushing.
6) Remove the Warrior's hp bonus due to CON. The Regeneration is more than enough of an edge.
7) Druids do indeed need new spells to be more on a par with Clerics. I've thought of a couple, of which my favorite is Bramble: An enhanced version of Entangle, this spell does Piercing and Poison damage to its victims and causes Spell Failure, because instead of just tangling roots wrapping around you, you find yourself ensnared in things like thorn vines and poison oak. Ow.
8) Now that Druids have more good spells, there's no need for Nature's Beauty to be so cheesy. Essentially it's "I got my spell off, so I win," and I hate it. I would change the spell to reduce its Area of Effect to 1/2 of its current radius, and make it so that it cannot be cast without breaking Invisibility.

[ 11-15-2002, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

[Desuma Malevois]

I've just started a new game using the Rebalanced Shapeshifter MOD so I can't comment on too much of the above yet, but I have noticed that you can give Cernd instant healing by simply going to the inventory screen, unequipping his werewolf paw, then reequipping it, rinse and repeat.

I don't think I like the idea of giving the Shapeshifter permanent Barkskin in human form - it just doesn't seem logical - but would it be possible to give him a chance of miscasting the spell while in werewolf form? Snouts and paws may be suitable for providing the verbal and somatic components of spells but they could still be clumsy and have a chance of messing the spell up.

Finally, if one is playing a shapeshifter then I can think of one reason why you might want to turn human again - that is, unless you want to give your romantic interest some wild wolf lovin' [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Alson]

Nice post, Six.

I agree with most of your suggestions in general.
I also think that casting spells while Shapeshifted isn't a good idea - it makes Human form completely redundant.

On the other hand, i want to comment about a few things.
Ramble ahead.

First, i don't like the Permanent Barkskin idea.
Where did it came from? Any RP idea to support it?
Drop it, i say. Ironskin are good enough protection already.

Second, why "Gauntlets of Crushing"?
The README clearly states that the paws deal slashing damage.

Third, about spells. You and I already debated about Druid Vs. Cleric - you know my opinion. Still, if you are suggesting to add the Bramble spell, i would be interested to know more about it - saves, durations, casting time, etc.

Forth and lastly - Nature's Beauty.
The infamous Nature's Beauty.
I agree with you that this spell is as broken as one can be - but that's the way it is. If you fix Nature's Beauty, you also need to fix many other spells - fix (this one is for you, Dundee [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) Feeblemind and make the effect not PERMANENT, fix the Contingencies alacrity bug, fix the clone spells COMPLETELY, etc...
Fixing every broken spell is too much.
Leave Nature's Beauty the way it is - and, as always - if you don't like it, don't use it.

[daan]

You dont change into a Greater Wolfwere, you change into a Greater Werewolf.
That's a very big difference ...one that proved to be a bitter surprise when I solo-ed one. Greater Werewolfs are a push-over basically, not a very good regeneration, pretty low HP and more ..
I couldnt take on anything while in that form

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Alson: First, i don't like the Permanent Barkskin idea. Where did it came from? Any RP idea to support it?

To tell the truth, I don't really like it either--but I like it better than trying to cast spells while buck naked. Being protected only by one's Bracers and Rings is for Mages, who have a buttload more protective spells anyway. There is indeed a fragment of RP behind it--As they are so familiar with their Wolf form, Shapeshifters have gradually learned to let the natural toughness of their skin seep over into their Human (or Half-Elf, of course) form, and more experienced Druids are more adept at it than their greener cousins.
I just think the Barkskin's a neat idea, but I'm not married to it.

Second, why "Gauntlets of Crushing"? The README clearly states that the paws deal slashing damage.

So? What's the big difference between the Monk's attack and the Shapeshifter's? Bare-handed, no other enchantments. One's Blunt and one's Slashing, but so what? (This would not make roleplay sense, however, for other Shapeshifted forms, such as the Sword Spider or Mustard Jelly.)

Third, about spells. You and I already debated about Druid Vs. Cleric - you know my opinion. Still, if you are suggesting to add the Bramble spell, i would be interested to know more about it - saves, durations, casting time, etc.

Bramble: 6th-Level Druid spell (Alteration). A much more potent version of Entangle, this spell ensnares all creatures in the area of effect with tough, thorny vines, poison oak, and stinging nettles. For each round that creatures remain within the area, there are three effects: First, all creatures suffer a 75% chance of Spellcasting Failure. Second, they must make a Save vs. Spells with a -3 penalty in order to break free; if they fail, they will be trapped there for another round, and take 1D8 piercing damage from the struggle. Third, they must Save vs. Death with a -2 penalty to avoid the toxins produced by the noxious plants; if they fail, they will be Poisoned for 2 rounds, at 1D6 damage per round.
I'll let you guys balance out the actual numbers; re-reading it now, I think 75% Spell Failure is too high, and/or should allow a Save. Casting time would probably be 6.

Forth and lastly - Nature's Beauty. I agree with you that this spell is as broken as one can be - but that's the way it is....Fixing every broken spell is too much.

That's a strange attitude--"I know something is wrong, but I'm not going to suggest fixing it." Okay, so we can't make every spell in the game fair....but we can at least balance this one, and maybe someone else will fix another one, etc. Druids would be SO much better if they had a nice array of GOOD spells, instead of just one OBSCENE spell. "Carrying this Druid around all the time is a pain, but once he hits Level 14 he'll win all my boss fights for me."

Originally posted by daan: You dont change into a Greater Wolfwere, you change into a Greater Werewolf. That's a very big difference ...one that proved to be a bitter surprise when I solo-ed one. Greater Werewolfs are a push-over basically, not a very good regeneration, pretty low HP and more .. I couldnt take on anything while in that form

I'm 80% sure the Rebalanced Shapeshifter is Wolfwere / Greater Wolfwere. I'm 100% sure that the hitpoints and Regeneration are very high indeed. If Cernd ever gets noticeably Injured, you can watch him heal like vooooooOOP! It's like pouring water into a glass. No more Healing spells for this dude.....

Which I why I'm starting to think the GWW form needs some toning down as well. Right now, Cernd is as useful to the party as a high-level Wizard, but with one important difference: Brainpower and thinking ahead. With a Wizard, you have to choose which spells to learn/memorize, watch closely when enemies cast their protection spells, cast your proper sequence of Anti-Protections, and then select the right spells to go in for the kill. Cernd, on the other hand, is essentially a "fire-and-forget" nuclear bomb; I can just send him into a room full of bad guys, go sell some Rings & stuff at the nearest shop, then come back and collect loot. So far, Cernd has died ONCE: At the hands of 2 Demonknights at once. (I think Cernd rolled low: He was able to take them one-on-one with the greatest of ease.) I'm going to give him some Fire Resistance potions & see how he does, mano a mano, against Firkraag.

[slicer15]

If ur serious, i'm curious to see the results!

I HATE Firkraag! That guy gave me a whole load of frustration and boy did i celebrate once his god-damned, oversized body collapsed to the floor....

[Dundee Slaytern]

Oh my goodness! daan has raised an extremely good point!

The Shapeshifter does not need rebalancing!

You change into a Greater Werewolf. You do NOT change into a Greater Wolfwere!

[Alson]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: quote: Second, why "Gauntlets of Crushing"? The README clearly states that the paws deal slashing damage.

So? What's the big difference between the Monk's attack and the Shapeshifter's? Bare-handed, no other enchantments. One's Blunt and one's Slashing, but so what?[/QUOTE]Hit yourself with a 10 Kilos hammer.
Then, cut your left arm (assuming you are right handed) with a chain saw.
You tell me what's the difference.

I like the idea, but the Gauntlets of Crushing just makes no sense.
Making a custom item - Gauntlets of Slashing, usable only by Shapeshifters can be an (somewhat lame) alternative.

quote: Third, about spells. You and I already debated about Druid Vs. Cleric - you know my opinion. Still, if you are suggesting to add the Bramble spell, i would be interested to know more about it - saves, durations, casting time, etc.

Bramble: 6th-Level Druid spell (Alteration). A much more potent version of Entangle, this spell ensnares all creatures in the area of effect with tough, thorny vines, poison oak, and stinging nettles. For each round that creatures remain within the area, there are three effects: First, all creatures suffer a 75% chance of Spellcasting Failure. Second, they must make a Save vs. Spells with a -3 penalty in order to break free; if they fail, they will be trapped there for another round, and take 1D8 piercing damage from the struggle. Third, they must Save vs. Death with a -2 penalty to avoid the toxins produced by the noxious plants; if they fail, they will be Poisoned for 2 rounds, at 1D6 damage per round.
I'll let you guys balance out the actual numbers; re-reading it now, I think 75% Spell Failure is too high, and/or should allow a Save. Casting time would probably be 6.[/QUOTE]Yes, that would be better.

quote: Forth and lastly - Nature's Beauty. I agree with you that this spell is as broken as one can be - but that's the way it is....Fixing every broken spell is too much.

That's a strange attitude--"I know something is wrong, but I'm not going to suggest fixing it." Okay, so we can't make every spell in the game fair....but we can at least balance this one, and maybe someone else will fix another one, etc.[/QUOTE]But NB is the Druid biggest advantage in the game, as i proved to you in our PM discussion.
Fixing it without fixing the other broken spells (Arcane at most) will be infair, so say the least.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: The Shapeshifter does not need rebalancing!

I never played the BioWare version of the Shapeshifter, so I can't offer any evaluation of its capabilities--but I must say I wasn't impressed with the kit's description, especially compared with the Totemic Druid. Also, daan seems of the opinion that the original GWW form wasn't much of a powerhouse. Weimer's version, however, is an absolutely insane Tank. How many characters in your party can just walk up and Tank the crap out of an Adamantite Golem without your even having to touch a single button? Cernd could take on a string of Adamantites all day long without ever losing more than 70% of his health, and to me, that's a sign that something's too easy. I went down to the Temple Sewers and just pointed Cernd in the general direction of Draug Fea. One minute & 45 seconds later, he was collecting loot. Dundee's goal is to write a PRATI script for his Sorcerer, so that playing BG will be like watching a movie--anyone who downloads the Rebalanced Shapeshifter will already have this.

Originally posted by Alson: Hit yourself with a 10 Kilos hammer. Then, cut your left arm (assuming you are right handed) with a chain saw. You tell me what's the difference.

The difference is that the hammer causes more INternal bleeding than EXternal, causing more festering of necrotic tissue, and the vain hope that your smashed arm will heal. It's also much more difficult to bandage. That's the difference.

I like the idea, but the Gauntlets of Crushing just makes no sense.

Well, it does to me. Let's just leave it at that.

But NB is the Druid biggest advantage in the game, as i proved to you in our PM discussion. Fixing it without fixing the other broken spells (Arcane at most) will be infair, so say the least.

Not exactly....our PM discussion proved to me that NB is practically the ONLY Druid advantage in the game. Tell me, how would you feel fighting a Boss enemy who cast Nature's Beauty all the time? Wouldn't you feel that the game was cheating? And yet you seek to justify NB as a valid spell? Fixing it without fixing some of the other broken spells would *NOT* be unfair, if we give Druids a strong assortment of good spells to replace it with. (And some good Bucklers & Druid weapons.) That's the setup that Clerics have, and nobody says that Clerics are weak.

[Dundee Slaytern]

AH!

/me calms down.

You missed my point, SixOfSpades. The rebalance was done under the assumption that the Shapeshifter becomes a Greater Wolfwere, but it does not! According to the kit's description, it becomes a Greater Werewolf.

Werewolf != Wolfwere