Choice or Causality?

Xen · 04-17-2004, 03:26 PM

So after watching all three parts of the Matrix what do you guys belive in? Choice - Everything happens because thats what we choose

or

Causality - Cause and Effect (there is no choice).

Gangrell · 04-17-2004, 03:54 PM

To me, everyone has a choice, there are cases of cause and effect but usually it's not as simple as "You do this so this happens", a lot more scenarios than that are played out.

But no, I don't believe in it in cause and effect.

promethius9594 · 04-17-2004, 04:02 PM

free choice, causality is a scapegoat for the weak, for those who cant be real men (women) and accept responsability for their actions.

Albromor · 04-17-2004, 04:18 PM

Free choice with the understanding that we CANNOT choose the consequences, i.e. how often people have attempted to do good and the complete opposite occurs. I have found that the afterwards is *always* greater in degree and depth than the initial behavior/action that got the thing started in the first place.

Vaskez · 04-17-2004, 07:31 PM

Whatever you believe in, it is always a mixture of both. Whatever you choose will have consequences and consequences of earlier choices by you or others will influence your future choices.

promethius9594 · 04-17-2004, 08:58 PM

vaskez, influence is different from causality, therefore i disagree with your supposition. I may be influenced by prior situations, and may weigh those, but i deny that they FORCE me to any given decision.

causality, or determinalism, states that ALL choices are predestined by circumstance and can therefore never be made of any free will. I reject this theory with all my heart because it is the end of moral justification.

Vaskez · 04-17-2004, 09:05 PM

OK I see your point, I also disagree that all choices are predestined. We have God-given free will for a reason.

Ehrys · 04-17-2004, 11:10 PM

Oh man... these exam questions are too tough.

We think we are making a decision based on the multiple paths available before us, based on what we think is the best possible alternative... whereas cause & effect almost seems to be a predetermined outcome of any decision.

So, whereas we are choosing a certain path, based on whatever factors determine that path to be the best, can one say that causality also applies in that the "choosing" is part of the "cause & effect"?

Dunno. I just know that when I was younger, I chose to punch my little brother in the nose because he was bugging the hell outta me... fully understanding that my brother would go screaming from the room to my parents and I would get in big trouble. But I couldn't help myself. It seemed like the only (best) course of action at the time.

Go figure.

Kakero · 04-17-2004, 11:21 PM

I believe that the choices that we make now is influence by the choices that we make in the past and will effect the choices that we will make in the future.

Firestormalpha · 04-17-2004, 11:32 PM

There is both choice and causality. You choose to do something and that usually causes something else to happen. Or perhaps it causes the need for further choices, either your choices or the choices of others.

Or as you seem to define it, there is still both, though with a different explanation. Choice is the tool of those who control their own actions. Causality is the excuse of those who choose not to.

04-17-2004, 04:02 PM	#3
promethius9594 Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: April 13, 2004 Location: USA Age: 42 Posts: 676	free choice, causality is a scapegoat for the weak, for those who cant be real men (women) and accept responsability for their actions. __________________ mages may seem cool, but if there was a multi player game you wouldnt see my theif/assasin until you were already too dead to cast a spell...

04-17-2004, 07:31 PM	#5
Vaskez Takhisis Follower Join Date: April 30, 2001 Location: szép Magyarország (well not right now) Posts: 5,089	Whatever you believe in, it is always a mixture of both. Whatever you choose will have consequences and consequences of earlier choices by you or others will influence your future choices. __________________ Too set in his ways to ever relate If he could set that aside, there'd be heaven to pay But weathered and aged, time swept him to grave Love conquers all? Damn, I'd say that area's gray

04-17-2004, 08:58 PM	#6
promethius9594 Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: April 13, 2004 Location: USA Age: 42 Posts: 676	vaskez, influence is different from causality, therefore i disagree with your supposition. I may be influenced by prior situations, and may weigh those, but i deny that they FORCE me to any given decision. causality, or determinalism, states that ALL choices are predestined by circumstance and can therefore never be made of any free will. I reject this theory with all my heart because it is the end of moral justification. __________________ mages may seem cool, but if there was a multi player game you wouldnt see my theif/assasin until you were already too dead to cast a spell...

04-17-2004, 11:10 PM	#8
Ehrys Manshoon Join Date: November 7, 2003 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Age: 52 Posts: 211	Oh man... these exam questions are too tough. We think we are making a decision based on the multiple paths available before us, based on what we think is the best possible alternative... whereas cause & effect almost seems to be a predetermined outcome of any decision. So, whereas we are choosing a certain path, based on whatever factors determine that path to be the best, can one say that causality also applies in that the "choosing" is part of the "cause & effect"? Dunno. I just know that when I was younger, I chose to punch my little brother in the nose because he was bugging the hell outta me... fully understanding that my brother would go screaming from the room to my parents and I would get in big trouble. But I couldn't help myself. It seemed like the only (best) course of action at the time. Go figure. __________________ ~ Ehrys ~<br /><br />\"Learn from the mistakes of others, as you don\'t live long enough to make them all yourself.\"

04-17-2004, 11:32 PM	#10
Firestormalpha Knight of the Rose Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Coral Springs, Fl USA Age: 41 Posts: 4,454	There is both choice and causality. You choose to do something and that usually causes something else to happen. Or perhaps it causes the need for further choices, either your choices or the choices of others. Or as you seem to define it, there is still both, though with a different explanation. Choice is the tool of those who control their own actions. Causality is the excuse of those who choose not to. __________________ "When you start with a presupposition, it's hard to arrive at any other conclusion." "We are never to judge a philosophy by its abuse." - Augustine "If you're wondering if God has a sense of humor, consider the platypus." http://www.greaterthings.cbglades.com

04-17-2004, 03:26 PM	#1
Xen Symbol of Moradin Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Slovenia,Ljubljana Age: 37 Posts: 8,554	So after watching all three parts of the Matrix what do you guys belive in? Choice - Everything happens because thats what we choose or Causality - Cause and Effect (there is no choice).

04-17-2004, 03:54 PM	#2
Gangrell Iron Throne Cult Join Date: January 2, 2003 Location: Big Castle in the Sky Age: 37 Posts: 4,835	To me, everyone has a choice, there are cases of cause and effect but usually it's not as simple as "You do this so this happens", a lot more scenarios than that are played out. But no, I don't believe in it in cause and effect.

04-17-2004, 04:18 PM	#4
Albromor Mephistopheles Join Date: June 13, 2001 Location: Northfield, NJ USA Posts: 1,417	Free choice with the understanding that we CANNOT choose the consequences, i.e. how often people have attempted to do good and the complete opposite occurs. I have found that the afterwards is always greater in degree and depth than the initial behavior/action that got the thing started in the first place.

04-17-2004, 09:05 PM	#7
Vaskez Takhisis Follower Join Date: April 30, 2001 Location: szép Magyarország (well not right now) Posts: 5,089	OK I see your point, I also disagree that all choices are predestined. We have God-given free will for a reason.

04-17-2004, 11:21 PM	#9
Kakero 40th Level Warrior Join Date: March 24, 2002 Posts: 10,215	I believe that the choices that we make now is influence by the choices that we make in the past and will effect the choices that we will make in the future.

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