Bard vs. Gadgeteer for final spot.

[Argonnes]

I'm starting up another party and I have one spot left. As such, I'm looking at either putting a Bard or a Gadgie in that spot. The more I look at the skills and class specific items (instruements vs. gadgets/omnigun), the more and more the Bard looks more appealing.

For the most part, the Bard instruements and the Gadgie's gadgets are pretty comperable. So the real question seems to come down to the skills and the bonus skills. From here, it seems pretty straight forward that the Bard wins out (increased communication, pick locks and pick pockets, and more effective with artifacts). Also throw in the benefits the Bard gives to camping and it seems to out do what the upgrades to the omnigun give the Gadgie.

So, can anyone point out a flaw to my logic on skipping the Gadgie and going with the Bard instead for that last spot?

[petertmorgan]

Welcome!

I guess if you haven't played either a bard or a gadgeteer before I would go with the bard. Overall, the bard is a fun character from start to finish, whereas the gadgeteer is pretty weak in the beginning.

I don't see any flaws in your logic, except I might comment on two of your points.

1) instruments and gadgets may be comparable overall but the instruments are easier to get, the ones you get early are more useful, and you don't have to be piecing them together from bits strewn out all over the map (you might like that, though)

2) The gadgeteer starts with points in lock and traps (about 8 depending on your stats I think) whereas the Bard starts with 0 (you can put up to five more in either, of course). This makes little difference to me if I have a well balanced party, but if I don't have a knock-knock person, and I'm relying on my bard for picking locks, then I accept I'll have to commit some points there.


Something else worth mentioning in this analysis is that the bard has on average more flexibility in allocating points to str,int,dex, etc. than the gadgeteer, so I find I can have a bard who is a good fighter, good thrower (for bombs as well as thrown weapons), okay with artifacts, and adequate musician, whereas with the gadgeteer I find myself with a character who can shoot the omnigun (with its very limited damage in the beginning) and use gadgets (but always at risk of running out of stamina).

[ 03-12-2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: petertmorgan ]

[Marathon]

Welcome! I've only run a couple of parties so far, but the Bard made life a lot easier early on whereas the gadgeteer proved to be somewhat of a liability. The gadgeteer is currently level 14 and only has a few good magic items crafted, but a ton of lone gadgets that won't merge with anything else. The omnigun is starting to get better but still produces frustratingly low damage outputs. At level 14 the Bard has more instruments than she can carry and has been a blessing against low level hordes. I'd say go Bard all the way.

[ferro287]

Well, just to make things less obvious, i'll take the opposite viewpoint.

Gadgeteers have gadgets which i'd prefer to the instruments that you can get at the same level. The first six gadgets you'll get on a fairly normal route will give you energy blast (rocking version), paralyze (so-so), hypnotic lure (very versatile), Eye for an Eye, guardian angel and noxious fumes.

Let's see about the bard: sleep, shrill sound, bless, armor melt, haste, slow, charm, insanity. Indeed a lot more instruments, but which of these spells are useful? shrill sound for damage, haste, sleep and insanity.

Later on spells like superman, boiling blood, inst. death, aspyhxiation, earthquake and tsunami, compare easily to freeze all, cer. Hemorrhage, nuclear blast, restoration and turncoat.

No, over the complete run of the game I would not say that instruments are more useful. Personally i even prefer the spells from the gadgets, but would think that it might relate to playing style preference.

That leaves other factors important for the choice: You rate the beneficial use of bards when camping as a plus. To tell you the truth I only rest once for a second to get my mook back in arnika. That's enough for the whole game.

Lockpicking is easy to raise as a gadgeteer (even a professional skill) since he doesn't need to raise many skills, and pickpocketing is useless unless you play the prepatched version. Artifacts skill is definitely useful, but than it's something that rises nicely if you're interested in it. After all, Gadgeteers have higher Int than Bards.

That leaves the fighting part open, here i'd call it a tie for meelee, ranged is obviously the gadgeteers strong part. If you don't like the damage done by the omnigun at lvl 14, maybe you could consider a blunderbuss

Seriously, there's the possibility to do awesome ranged damage, if you're willing to carry ammo.

For eq, bards special eq is obviously a plus for bards, takes a while and some trouble to get it though.

And than there's gadgeteers ability to use Magic in non-magic zones, but there's too few of them to make that a decent advantage.

All in all, I'd say they're on the same scale, and it's personal preference. I'd _always_ prefer a Gadgie though

[ 03-12-2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: ferro287 ]

[Scatter]

When i started whittling down to what skills are absolutely essential to Ascend, in order to play with ever smaller parties, the Bard is what remained, if not a Bishop, as a Solo having all necessary survival abilities. But in a larger group, i often picked a Gad as the third or fourth. Some of their 'spells' are very handy indeed, and i usually replace the OG with a Phaser as soon as i get to one, don't need ammo for them.
The L&T advantage is moot to me, as i have the patience to practise my craft.
You completely left out the most important instruments in your comparison list. Magic Screen and Soul Shield, spells which keep you from getting fried and insanified. And then Hex...
Of course, one of the most fun games i had was a Duo with a Bard and a Gad...

[GMK]

Gadgie all the way for me. I usually head to martens bluff soonish (before trynton) to grab the quest item there to save time, and the port o potty that you finish with an item from there is a fantastic gadget in the early/mid game. I often find it does ~20 damage on 5-6 targets and knocks one or two unconscious [img]smile.gif[/img] . And once you start loading bolts and arrows into that omnigun the gadgie becomes a killing machine, with chance of just about every status affect to boot.

I think the focus is different. Bards have a few more protective/buffing spells whereas gadgeteers get more damage/status spells. The unlimited mass kill is too much for me to resist in any party, so i don't

[Wombstar]

i've not used a Bard but i have found the Gadgeteer to be great. at the moment his doing doubble damage and has two goes a trun, able to blind, kill as well as others.. of course at the start he is indeed a bit weak, but his limited the amount of spells i need to learn.. and because of his high IQ allowed other members to learn other skills,


GMK.. you he can use arrows in his weapon? i didn't know that.. bullet stones arn't much use but once you get a load of spike stones and all sorts there is no stopping him.. well he becomes unconscious a lot.. but a spell can put that
right. But as i say i've not used the bard before but i've injoyed useing the Gadgeteer, at least he provides another reasons to search every corner to find his items,, he can alos do alot more.

[Aelia Jusa]

As they level up, gadgeteers tweak their omniguns - some of those tweaks allow them to use different ammo; quarrels, darts and arrows. Which is very useful IMHO - stuffing it with mystic arrows with three shots per turn does a lot of damage!

It's a tough one to call! I think it may depend partly on your other party makeup- for instance if you were looking for someone with ranged combat then a gadgeteer would be my pick, but a bard is a much better meleer I've found. In terms of damage and abilities from instruments and gadgets, they seem fairly even, except that bards are better early on because gadgeteers can't even make a gadget until a fair way in. By the end though, I think gadgeteers have the edge, and I don't necessarily agree with the suggestion that gadgeteers are worse in terms of stamina - my mook gadgeteer and human bard can play pretty much the same in terms of using instruments/gadgets before they need reviving. I suppose what you'd want to consider is how much help you want early on - if you have a pretty good group without the bard (for instance if you're going with the full 6 people) then you might choose a gadgeteer. In terms of communication, I really have to say it's not that important. Everyone ends up with fair communication skill by the end. Locks and traps - well my gadgeteer has been my opener/untrapperer all game with my bard still on however many l/s skill points she started with, and we've had no worries.

I have to say though, in combination they are fairly unstoppable - my fighter has taken to doing her nails in battle now while they jackhammer/infernal horn all the monsters away, and my bishop is desperately trying to increase her wizardry but finding it hard to get a spell in!

[Wombstar]

have both.
best of both worlds.

[The Procrastinator]

Don't forget that bards can become excellent melee fighter, especially if you give them bloodlust early in the game.

I'd take a bard over a gadgie anytime, except if you're looking for something different, of course.