Monk

To me, the best hybrid in the game is easily the monk. I'll list out my reasons below, which I think make them useful to most partys.

1) STRENGTH. okay, it does take something away not being to buy them the latest in upper armor, lower armor, helmets, gloves, boots, etc. But the upside of this is all that carry capacity! just build up a little strength and you automatically have a mule for all those extra stones/arrows/potions you simply cant do without - let alone hauling all that treasure back to market. and that's not even mentioning the damage bonus, which can really add up (see below)

2) SPEED. let's face it, they arent much early in the game, in terms of damage or criticals. but later, at 12 hits per round, 20 damage each, that's a lot of damage and a lot of opportunities for criticals.

3) SPELLS. the psionic spellbook has the best single college list of any book: mental. simply make sure your monk is the one to do all your identifying, which you have to do anyway, and without any "training", or even putting points into intelligence or piety, they will quickly become a damn effective spell-caster in their one college. other hybrids have to share skill/learning across multiple colleges to make them effective.

and dont worry about not having as many spell-points to use because they are limited to this one college - they're a hybrid, they shouldnt be doing exorbitant casting anyway (besides, magic nectar is a dime a dozen... usually).

(of course, the psionic book easily has the worst level 6/7 spells, but hybrids are rarely effective with those anyway)

i'd love to hear other people's thoughts and epxeriences.
sultan

[Ziggurat]

I agree the Monk is one of the best hybrids. I take it you are doing the martial arts. I build up strength, speed and dexterity. You need a certain amount of strength so I let dexterity suffer for awhile. I haven't been impressed by his mental skills, even though I try to pump up the Mental ability. On the other hand, although I use him first for identifying, I let the Bish clean up if unsuccessful. And I have'nt got into using Mindread. As Quayle said, "It's a terrible thing to lose one's mind." Um, I guess it should be a mental is a terrible thing to waste?

A monk is still impressive even without decent spells.
P.S. Love the Einstein quote.

Thanks, Zig.

For identifying, I like to let the Monk keep doing it until he gets it. In the beginning that means a lot of quick camps to get back his 12 mana points in mental and identifying one more item then camping again, repeat ad nauseum. This can be a little tedious, but it's worth it in the long run.

Of course, this does mean that if I have a bishop they do little with the psionic spellbook, but bishops can be more effective with more focus, as has been discussed in other threads.

[ScottG]

Sorry to pull a 180 on you but this is why I think Monks are the WORST class (hybrid or otherwise):

Its really all down to the attributes, but.....

1. Monks completely waste attribute points toward Piety, the only upside here is that you have marginally better mana reserves than lower race minimum piety levels would have. The downside is tremendous as far specializing in attributes and unlocking their special skills.

2. Melee-Meatshield duty: Strength and Vitality are needed, as is a High AC, as is the capability of utilizing weapons with not only high damage potential but also additional effects. The two attributes that Monks don't utilize at creation are Strength and Vitality (huge mistake). Monks don't use armor and don't utilize weapons (unless you throw away the advantage of martial arts - and then really only to staffs). The offset for AC is that they do aquire Stealth and they class level up with damage resistance. Stealth is great but it doesn't allow additional effects that some armor might have, moreover the Rouge class can acquire stealth and light armor. Damage resistance is quite nice but the amount of it throughout most of the game is very low (because it scales by Monk class level, you might finish the game with only 20% and stumble through most of it with 12% or less) - a better damage resistance alternative for some race/class combinations (might) be Ironskin or simply utilizing a dwarf.

The offset for weapons is that they specialize in Martial Arts and get critical kill skill. Unfortunetly critical kill skill works much better with greater number of attacks (speed and dexterity) and with a high senses attribute. Furthermore you actually have to HIT your opponent first to even try for a critical, and maxed strength (and to a lesser extent higher dexterity) rule this. This then means that you should have 4 high or maxed attributes for quality criticals (strength, dexterity, speed, and senses) which is virtually impossible with this character. The obvious result is that criticals will suffer.

3. Magic duty: 5 level penalty for magic (which all hybrids have) is really tough. Things then get better here..... Intelligence is a primary attribute of magic casting and happens to be a primary attribute of the Monk. Furthermore Senses is the primary attribute of Psionics and again a primary attribute of the Monk. Again however, niether of these attributes will be Maxed early in the game because they are being "drained" by the requirements in dexterity and speed upon character creation.


SO.......... what does all of this suggest:

The complete (do it all) Monk needs 7 attributes (which is worse than even a Ninja) - and in reality is nothing more than a figment of ones imagination. It also suggests that a Monk is better developed as a late blooming Psionic that can take an occasional hit and serve an occasional insta-kill. The alternative mediocre at everything Monk can be achieved latter in the game by maxing Strength and Intelligence at creation and throughout the game. (This I believe is CT's preferance for development.) The real problem here though is that it will take quite a while to max these attributes because of the initial non-strength attribute and piety requirement of the Monk class.

....well, play around with the numbers on creation and I think you'll see what I'm talking about. If you want a challenge - choose a Monk.

[Target]

But which race makes for the best monk?
Do you go for Lizardman to help the Strength and Vitality, or pick one with higher dexterity, speed, and senses??

[ChaosTheorist]

Here we go again I keep seeing the same basic theme, and I really think you guys/girls are missing the boat.

The theme goes like this: "Hybrid class [x] sucks because it isn't as good as non-hybrid class [y] at doing [z]."

The alternative mediocre at everything Monk can be achieved latter in the game by maxing Strength and Intelligence at creation and throughout the game. (This I believe is CT's preferance for development.)

I'd rephrase this as "the alternative doesn't-suck-at-anything Monk..." (or Samurai, Ranger, whatever). Consider this alternate viewpoint:

Fighter, Rogue: sucks for much/most of the game at ranged combat. *Really* sucks at magic.
Mage, Psionic: sucks at melee combat, usually sucks at ranged combat. *Really* sucks at physical defense.

Compile your own list of the key areas where hybrids *really* suck. There, that didn't take long, did it?

If, like Variol, you insist that all melee combatants do the same damage as a Fighter, you have no choice but to take a Fighter. If you demand that your Alchemist-book caster be as skilled and powerful in the discipline as an Alchemist, your only option is to take an Alchemist. If you want more flexibility in creating characters that can do more than one thing well, or want characters that "don't suck" anywhere, well....

I roller skate--a lot. I'm better at it than, literally, 90% of the people I see around me, no matter where I skate. Do I "suck" at skating because I'm nowhere as good a skater as Brian Boitano? I don't think so.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

I'm not saying every fighter type should do the same as fighter; that would be boring. But at least let them make use of the skills that they are supposed to have. "Critical kill"; let the classes that have these abilities actually perform them! Otherwise they just suck! Then lets forget about all these stupid attributes they have to build. No class should ever need to build more than three areas. That's why they suck at everything!
My party of 2 fighters, 2 bishops, 1 ranger and 1 rogue are really fun. The proof is that I actually still have them. They have proven themselves many times when I was low on magic and was attacked while low on hit points. The ranger is the only class that I see doing criticals a descent amount of the time. The rogue with her 2 thieves daggers holds her own, the bishops are good in most magic areas and the fighters are "fighters". The K.O. thing for the fighters is often overloked too. Hey, if it's out cold, it's dead in that round or the next, I don't care what it is, which is better than criticals 'cos they actually get it!
I know this might sound silly but, I actually like "winning" the combats! Ressurection powder is limited and because I'm anal I like classes leveling up together which means nobody dying.

Sorry, I hate long posts!

[ScottG]

Target - what do you want your monk to do and when (in the game)?

"The theme goes like this: "Hybrid class [x] sucks because it isn't as good as non-hybrid class [y] at doing [z].""

Your getting AN end result - but your completely missing the theme itself. The theme is: What does this character need to do in the "party matrix" and when does it need to do it? This has been and always will be the starting point of ANY optimal party. ONLY then do you set about selecting class/race combinations, ALWAYS aware of exactly how and when to develop the character. What most people seem to be doing (on the surface at least) is trying create the ultimate class and shoe-horn that character into the party. Sure it can work, but rarely will it be optimum for any given point in the game (let alone for most of the game).

With this basis we can say: Fighter or Rouge sucks at magic? Who cares. What tasks are they charged with...Magic? NO! Mage or Psionic sucks at melee? Who cares. What tasks are they charged with...Melee? NO! The real determining factor here isn't the class of the character, its the simple fact that the particular character in question can only perform one type of action a round, (its a basic concept but it has profound implications for this game). For instance a Hybrid will generally be either perfoming physical combat (((((OR))))) performing magic - NOT BOTH.

For the most part Hybrids (regardless of which class) really don't suck at anything - neither are they particularly good at anything for most of the game. This isn't to suggest that hybrids can't be appropriate for a given situation. In an all hybrid party (or almost all hyrbid party) they can work well and in some instances even optimally (not unlike your Ranger party).

All that said...my post really wasn't a rant on Hybrids at all (try rereading it with out looking for an alterior motive). It was why Monks are the worst class available through-out much of the game and how a monk might be better developed for a particular function within a party. (Nor was it a jab at your method of development, I actually think its a good idea for character development, but I do recognize that it has limitations for character development and more importantly for party development.)

As for the "skater" sybolism.....it doesn't matter how good a skater you are if your asked to sky-dive.

Monks rock, thats the bottom line.

I have a game going with a monk at level 12
His strength is around upper 60s for decent damage and muling.
Speed and Dex are up there. He is dealing like 14-16 damage x2 or x3 for hits, and he gets three of those attacks. So lets caculate here. The maximum he could do in a round is 16x9= 144. Subtract 20 or 30 due to armor, he is still dealing about 90 damage if i got lucky. And i am making his criticals really high, he is a killing machine. More than 40% of the time he doesn't finish off a monster due to criticals. I'm also training his psionics so he is good for long ranged battles. My party is
Ninja
Lord
Monk
Bishop
Bard
Alchemist

and my monk makes #1 for favorite.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Originally posted by SecretMaster: Monks rock, thats the bottom line. I have a game going with a monk at level 12 His strength is around upper 60s for decent damage and muling. Speed and Dex are up there. He is dealing like 14-16 damage x2 or x3 for hits, and he gets three of those attacks. So lets caculate here. The maximum he could do in a round is 16x9= 144. Subtract 20 or 30 due to armor, he is still dealing about 90 damage if i got lucky. And i am making his criticals really high, he is a killing machine. More than 40% of the time he doesn't finish off a monster due to criticals. I'm also training his psionics so he is good for long ranged battles. My party is Ninja Lord Monk Bishop Bard Alchemist and my monk makes #1 for favorite.

Intersting party dude! I would never have put such a combo together. The main reason for this though is that I really like parties of all or mostly the same characters. Being open minded I will try the Monks.......soon! I will have do do some searching as to their best development: this thread is a good start.
Do y'all like to "brake the mold when matching race to character types or to stick to the most suited?