Dual wield or shield?

[ShadowChild]

This is me!

Ranger LVL 14 (i think!)
STR: 19
DEX: 18
CON: 18
INT: 9
WIS: 6
CHA: 18

Currently using the Longsword (The Drinker), the one that heals as you hit - and the Shield that gives 25% resistance to the Elements - i have some sort of Plate mail but can't think what its called and the Helm of Balduran.

Edit: (Ooooh i also have the ring of regeneration..which is nice [img]smile.gif[/img] )

I've been thinking about Dual Wielding The Drinker and possibly Frostreaver - but the thing is i like nice AC, normally i have -9 but now its -12 because of the Drow Plate.

Would Dual wielding do that much more damage to make up for the loss of AC...which would be around -6 if i lost the shield.

[ 04-01-2003, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: ShadowChild ]

[IronDragon]

I would suggest downloading the items upgrade mod and get yourself the Ring of Preservation +2 made up. It provides a +2 to AC, +2 to all saves, and Regenerate at 1 hp/6 seconds.
This should more than compensate for AC shield bonus.

Never dual wield without at least two proficiency points in dual wielding and three is preferable.

The addition of the off hand weapon will only add one attack per round but in most cases that extra attack is worth it. Whereas the loss of an AC point can be compensate for in toher ways. I cannot recall who did the mathematical analysis of dual wielding but I do recall that the addition of the second weapon does an additional 30% more damage per round, (that 30% is approximate). Given your Str and Dex ratings I would think your THAC0 is rather good. Try an experiment and give your Ranger the second sword and look at your THAC0, it could decrease slightly for your main hand but not to a disastrous level. The gauntlets of weapons skill/expertise will help this and I recommend finding them ASAP.

Deul wielding is a definite plus epically when the weapons you are using deal out a variety of bonuses. My Ranger Cleric is dual wielding FoA and Crom Faeyr ( a traditional dual wielding combination) and at the start of ToB has negative THAC0 scores for both main and off hand. I also enjoy having Valygar dual wield Celestial Fury and DayStar.

[SixOfSpades]

Given your class and stats, I would assume that you are your party's Tank. Therefore, stick with a Shield, at least for now. Tanks are primarily for defense, and should be used as such. It's true that Dual-weilding gives you more offensive power, but that doesn't mean you can't deal out plenty of carnage with a single weapon alone (especially with your STR). Hone your skills toward being immune to the attacks of 95% of the enemies in the game, and let your spellcasters worry about the rest.

[Klutz]

Can't hurt to try. Well, actually it CAN, like if you get fireballed without your 25% resist shield, but bear with me. As a Ranger you already have ** in two-weapon style as a class ability, meaning that adding a second weapon won't change your primary attack's THACO at all and you will be only -4 to hit for your off-hand attack. (Investing one more * to go up to *** in two-weapon would reduce that penalty to -2 if you chose to.)

As for whether it's wise to stick with it, I'd say it depends on the rest of your party, your preferred tactics, and whether you've got a really good secondary weapon to use (or are planning on getting one). There's also always the option of switching back to a shield for specific battles when you know you'll need the AC, resistances, or immunities from the shield more than the extra attack. More damage is always fun, but as Six pointed out, maximizing one character's damage isn't necessarily wise if it comes at the expense of making your party overall more vulnerable.

[Assassin]

It depends. Do you like 'A best defense is a good offense'? If so, dual-wield. I have, and I always will, even with my tanks. AC only matters so much once you get high up there, and it's possible to have a character with -13 AC without using a Shield. If they're dead, then they can't hurt you. Spells can help you pre-buff if you really need that little boost.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Assassin: AC only matters so much once you get high up there, and it's possible to have a character with -13 AC without using a Shield.

An AC of -13 is sufficient for most enemies--the "roadkill" kind. But I'd want something a little more substantial if I were facing, say, any Boss enemy, any of the tougher fights, or the nastier types of Golem. -13 is next to useless against anything with a reasonably good THAC0....that's why my Tank has -21.

If they're dead, then they can't hurt you. Spells can help you pre-buff if you really need that little boost.

True, the "kill 'em first" method is extremely effective--just ask Dundee--but for the most part, only spellcasters are able to effectively wreak enough devastation to overwhelm enemies, without giving a whit for their own defense. And the "little boost" given from spells is absolutely TREMENDOUS. Take any good fight--the House Jae'llat, for example--and see what a difference *not* using Ilbratha can make.

[Assassin]

An AC of -13 is sufficient for most enemies--the "roadkill" kind. But I'd want something a little more substantial if I were facing, say, any Boss enemy, any of the tougher fights, or the nastier types of Golem. -13 is next to useless against anything with a reasonably good THAC0....that's why my Tank has -21.

Erm... The extra 3 points of AC that you get from a Shield doesn't really make all that much difference. The Elemental resistance is a bit better, but casting Protection from the Elements duplicates that much better.

True, the "kill 'em first" method is extremely effective--just ask Dundee--but for the most part, only spellcasters are able to effectively wreak enough devastation to overwhelm enemies, without giving a whit for their own defense. And the "little boost" given from spells is absolutely TREMENDOUS. Take any good fight--the House Jae'llat, for example--and see what a difference *not* using Ilbratha can make.

Erm... Anything can overwhelm the enemy. Plowing through enemies is what my parties do best. When you have 3 Fighter-type characters attacking a single enemy, each with a good 3.5 attacks per round, you splatter quickly. Then you're killing, on average 2 enemies per round. There aren't that many really hard fights in the game. The ones that are really hard, I don't see what a couple of points of AC that a Shield gives you will help.

[dulouz]

-21 AC unbuffed? eh..? is this with "standard" BG2 and no crazy mods? i hate crazy mods... to each their own though. If this is without any mods i'd like to see your equiped item list. if it's with mods, then i don't need a list

peace,
dulouz.

[Klutz]

Hmmm. No patches/mods, just SOA:

Armor of the Hart (Full Plate Mail +3): -12, AC -2
18 or 19 dex: -4, AC -6 [What dex gives you a -5AC bonus? If 20, might be able to achieve -5 by BG1 import of race with natural 19 dex]
Helm of Balduran: -1, AC -7
Sentinel (Shield +4): -5, AC -12
Cloak of the Sewers: -1, AC -13
Ring of Earth Control: -1, AC -14
Ring of Gaxx: -2, AC -16
Improved Invisibility charge on Ring of Gaxx: -4, AC -20

I believe TOB has a Ring of Protection +3, which by replacing the +2 version gets us to AC -21, at least while your improved invisibility spell lasts. And you can go down two more while in the Underdark using Drow Full Plate +5.

Forgot:
Cloak of the Sewers: -1AC.

Plus, if you use Dakkon's Zerth Blade or Defender of Easthaven as your weapon, you can get another -1AC. Those two items require Bonus Merchants, but that's not generally considered a mod. There may be other one-handed weapons that grant an AC bonus but I can't think of any off the top of my head. I have no clue if there are any TOB shields better than Sentinel.

Also forgot no ROP +2 with Armor of the Hart, so I guess you can just ignore this post and read Six's reply [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-03-2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Klutz ]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by dulouz: -21 AC unbuffed? eh..? is this with "standard" BG2 and no crazy mods?

It's standard BG2 and no crazy MODs, but not unbuffed. I had:
Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist with base AC of 10,
unenchanted Full Plate (AC = 1)
18 DEX (AC = -3)
Sentinel Shield (AC = -8)
Helm of Balduran (AC = -9)
Ring of Gaxx (AC = -11)
Ring of Protection+2 (AC = -13)
Girdle of Glory (AC = -16)
Cloak of the Sewers (AC = -17)
Tenser's Transformation (AC = -21) Do NOT underestimate Tenser's.

True, I am using the Girdle of Glory, but the only thing cheesy about it is that it doesn't conflict with my Ring of Protection. (If it did, I'd have to suffer a whole whopping AC point as I swap in the Ring of Earth Control in its place.)

[ADD:] Klutz, your scheme won't work: Armor of the Hart conflicts with RoP+2. Although you're right, I could be pulling Imp. Invisibility out of my Ring....I'm just having enough fun as it is, with the Improved Haste. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/ADD]

[ 04-03-2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]